Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva@luckymojo.com (nagasiva yronwode) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.divination,alt.astrology.asian,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick,alt.astrology Subject: Re: Symbolic Association, Divination and Magic (was Astrology and magic) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 74 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <8dqbup$nd0@bolt.sonic.net> References: <71RS1CAdu0+4Ewsj@gameskeeper.demon.co.uk> <38FB6BE9.62B6@luckymojo.com> <8dl003$k6q@bolt.sonic.net> <38FE501D.377D@luckymojo.com> Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:59:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 956347152 208.201.224.36 (Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:59:12 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:59:12 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:22852 alt.pagan.magick:22035 alt.divination:16901 alt.astrology.asian:12067 alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic:22184 alt.magick:189755 alt.astrology:291577 50000421 IVom sri catyananda: >>>Another book that attempted to create a grand database of the >>>subject was Aleister Crowley's deeply flawed "777" nagasiva: >>...Crowley agreed that it was flawed. >>it was not supposed to be "a grand database" (i.e. information), >>but instead a working system of correspondences for ceremonial >>magic (i.e. a personal recognition/cypher system). >> >>that is, your criticism of it seems misplaced to me. sri catyananda : >Ok, so why did he publish it? in order to provide an example from which others could learn the methods of ceremonialism. this was apparently his main focus, departing from the Golden Dawn style and attempting to construct his own ceremonial system. I have done something comparable with what I call a shamanic (or spontaneous) method (making the symbol-association schema during ritual -- as a result of visions and as a type of mandala for meditative concentration or bhaktik dedication -- rather than prior to these as a tool to facilitate them). >>>but no matter how many variant systems you absorb, do not quickly >>>become attached to "one right way" of interlinking the data or you >>>will end [up?] of rigidifying your mind at precisely the point it >>>should become more flexible. >> >> with divination systems, flexibility and interpretive breadth can >> be very important. with both divinatory systems and lattices for >> ceremonial magic the flexibility of the former and personal >> knowledge-base of the latter will necessarily limit its usefulness >> and serve as a convenient target for those who misconstrue their >> purposes. > >...The flexibility of [divination systems] and the personal knowledge >base of [correspondence systems] will limit "its" usefulness and serve >as a convenient target for those who misconstrue their purposes? What >is "it" in that sentence? (the correspondence system database?) >...Who is "their" in that sentence ("those" (people)? or databases?) 'its' should have been 'their'. 'their purposes' relates to the same two system types (see below). >Why or how will its usefulness be limited? divination systems -- flexibility and interpretive breadth will limit usefulness as a clear instruction-device for those who have no ability to infer meaning (i.e. it becomes suitable only to those with expert skill in divination). beginner systems will spell everything out, like training wheels. expert systems will leave much more to the inferment or sensitivity of the diviner. lattices for ceremonial magic -- a personal knowledge-base will limit usefulness as any kind of means to understand the world, as well as compose a self-enclosed symbolic language for the magician to use to interpret visionary symbols. usefulness is thereby limited to the individual making the construction. raw material may be obtained in modern comparative religion and general overviews of reliable sourcing on subjects like symbolism, mythology, and folklore in order to enhance and 'ground' one's own personal knowledge-base in one's lattice (theoretically making it more and more possible to use the ceremonial construction of another for one's own rites). nagasiva -- mailto:nagasiva@luckymojo.com ; http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html mailto:boboroshi@satanservice.org ; http://www.satanservice.org/ emailed replies may be posted; cc replies if response desired