Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: fundamentals of magick Date: 17 Mar 1995 09:09:43 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 149 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <3kcfon$df2@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <2f623f63@p0.f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (mordred) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick:40073 alt.magick.tyagi:2596 Kali Yuga 49950317 Christeos.Pir@f235.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Christeos Pir) quotes the conversation between Li Ehr and I and writes: [tyagi] |<> [Christeos] |...While it may be that each of us has particular predilections, and |that by breaking the so-called rules one may discover a personal method |that works better, this doesn't mean that all methods are equally |efficacious. Of course. My point was that there are no fixed 'correct formulae', not that one couldn't discover an appropriate configuration of mage and formulae. Various Magi from the past have exemplified your point. |...My recommendation is to try the recipe first before attempting to |modify it. I suggest that this may lead to disaster. It is like monoculture. It may easily to lead to a condition in which the entirety of the field of magick is relegated and controlled by 'Experts' within the Orthodoxy. I suggest that diversity wrt the relationship with tradition is likely for the best, some trying the recipe, some dropping it completely, some doing a little of both. |If nothing else, we then have a yardstick, a "control," against which to |compare the results of later experiments. (As always, one of the greatest |weapons of the magician is their diary.) There is no control in the realm of subjective science. Working on different processes, we apply technology to an entirely new event-identity. If the technology stays the same this does nothing to coordinate the event- identities. The Magical Record is best seen as a mirror for the individual who makes it. It is only partially useful as a picture for the use of others (since in order to benefit from it one need be involved within the life that it reflects in order to have it become transformative, potent. [illustration implying to me the efficacy of belief, omitted] |<> |Surely you mean "...ability to accept and learn from failure..."? Find |me someone lacking the _ability_ to fail, and I'll show you an arhat! I agree with you and yet would add that some people do not have the *ability* to fail in that we never purposefully set out to do so. I think it valuable to do more than avoid failure at all costs, accept it when it comes and learn from it in order to avoid it in the future. It seems to me that working toward a resolution of the 'failure/success' dichotomy is quite important and that we are so conditioned to 'strive for success' that an ability to carry on Lost Causes is on the decline. The problem of course is that the outcome is not known and all we wind up with is a distinct lack of perserverence, discipline and resolve. *WILLINGNESS* to fail is, in this sense, a valuable and perhaps essential component of learning the craft. |<> |<> |While I might be in agreement with these, I'd like to know your definitions |of "knowledge" and "wisdom." I meant by 'knowledge' comprehension of information - book learning. I meant by 'wisdom' an attunement with the rhythms of Nature. I agree that the former can be an invaluable tool and that the latter is often seen as (one of) the goal(s) of the mage, but I don't think that they are 'fundamental requirements for the beginner'. The former can indeed be bypassed by some and the latter develops as a byproduct of the process/path. [li ehr] |>|...one needs the ablity to act, and one needs to hone this ablity such |>|that what one attempts will occur. |<> |Mind clarifying this point? Surely one can learn from one's successes |as well as one's failures. There is much more to learning than 'getting the right behavior/action'. A true and complete comprehension will include experience of the side- tracks, the traps and problems of the path magical. Who better to serve as a Guide than one who has fallen into the holes along the way, who has gone off on wild goose chases, in fact one who has INTENTIONALLY TAKEN THE WRONG PATHS (and survived) to see where they lead? |<> |Agreed. But I'd like to know how you see the Great Work. (Especially in light |of my impression of your Crowleyan "Black Brother" stance.) I have no stances, but I will respond to your inquiry as you intend it. I like to see the Great Work as a personal and cosmologic phenomenon-event with extreme and symbolic depth and intensity. It is as much fact as fancy, as much derived of the Mage's imagination as of the configuration of Universe. The Great Work is the unification of that which had been torn asunder and the diversification of those which had been combined. Like a pebble dropped into a pool of water which sends ripples through it that transmogrifies the whole into a new substance (e.g. wine), so are we and our surroundings forever transformed. I think the Black Brothers are, personally, the fulcrum of change within their localized consciousness -- i.e. the ego is a very important part of the Great Work in their case. Social reaction to these Brothers (and I do not intend to imply an exclusion of women here, I'm only using Crowley's biased terms) is likely to be negative, since the Messenger of Bad News, the Midwife of the Shadow, the Social Psychiatrist is typically seen as the originator of the Problem (at least at first and by those with limited vision). Thus is Hitler considered the Great Evil. Yet even such as he inspired massive change in oscillating polar frequencies (witness the instruction *against Nazism* within Germany of late and the natural response to this: rebirthing of that which is repressed). |"Wake your reasons' hollow vote | Wear your blizzard season coat | Burn a bridge and burn a boat | Stake a Lizard by the throat." Very interesting. I was just reading how spiking the head of a serpent symbolizes the ordering of the cosmos, the vanquishing of chaos, to the Hindus. Apparently the spiked serpent head is placed within the foundation of (some) Hindu temples. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com tyagi nagasiva --------------------------- "Reduction of self does not refer to the visible ego, but rather to dissolving the bindings that cause the self to be separable. It is not an emotional question - it is a technical one, having to do with occult structures and karmic momentum. The visible ego is a manifestation of these structures - trying to attain higher awareness by reducing the visible ego is like trying to correct bad vision by pulling out your eyes. "'No more touchy-feely Zen!'" kerrym@world.std.com (Kerry M Miller) (Usenet:alt.zen)