Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.chaos,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magickck.moderated Subject: Science and Magick (Was Re: Science is Magic...) Followup-To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi Date: 28 Feb 1996 13:41:45 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 77 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Approved: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com Message-ID: <4h2i6p$3i3@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4fvpf8$dpi@abyss.West.Sun.COM> < Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick:67922 alt.magick.chaos:6906 alt.magick.tyagi:6905 kaliyuga 49960228 cortland@iglou.com (Jason Lambdin): |The thing you call "outer space" and the thing some people call the |astral are indeed the SAME THING! Hmm, I've usually associated 'astral' with 'interior' or 'subjective' experiences which have not been verified in the same way as, say, the movement of a billiard-ball, or the changes in chemicothermal conditions using scientific instruments. Very rarely have I heard people identify 'astral' with 'outer space' except perhaps in ancient texts about 'aether', which was supposed resident between cosmological bodies. I'm no historian. Somebody please correct me if necessary. |...The ultimate reality of what space is is unknowable, as are all |things in a universe constructed of belief. Right, so if we move from associating knowledge with belief to that based on *experience*, perhaps this will shift the level of consciousness generally of whatever system adopts this value-shift. This is what modern Science should be doing: hiring professionals of all disciplines to investigate them and report back to their sociological or psychological laboratories, investigating human experience as thoroughly and resourcefully as is done with *external* phenomena, such as subatomic physics or something like NASA. |>magic: to cause an effect |Actually, I think that's pretty good. Everything does run on magic. I think you may wish to insert some intentionality, some consciousness into that definition. At least a lot of people seem to presume that magick and intentionality, volition, in short, will, is a necessary component, and for some the only one (sometimes coincident with love). |>Magic is a function OF causality, it's not causality itself. This was my point. I'd say 'directed causality'. How about even 'consciously directed causality'? You can still take this in many different directions, like indirect symbolic manipulation of the patterns and forces 'behind' the level of manifestation or as a kind of D&D-like direct-effect such as a 'laying on hands'. |...Everything does run on magic. Oldstyle paradigms, man. Universe-as-Machine. Man-the-Driver. Man-the-Tender. Watch-the-big-Clock. We didn't make the big Clock, but we do notice it has some limitations as to its ability to support us indefinitely, if not from over-population then from supernovae far into humanoid futures, and, if current ideas be believed, from a simpering heat-death clutching the dying embers of the Fire of Eternity. There are alternatives, you know. ;> tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -------- ...my advice is to get out of Buddhist studies before it becomes a career. Then you can join the ranks of irresponsible 'amatuer' practitioner 'scholars' like me. Then Buddhism (or Bon) will never cease to be fun. :-) alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan: Namdrol -- To ensure my response CC all public replies to email (READ alt.magick.tyagi) (emailed replies may be posted) * http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html INTENTIONAL .SIG PROTEST: FUCK SHIT PISS COCKSUCKER MOTHERFUCKER TITS CUNT