Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!pacbell.com!well!heidrick
From: heidrick@well.sf.ca.us (Bill Heidrick)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.pagan.magick
Subject: Re: Let's not trash Christian Magickians just because of Bible thumping idiots.. Was: Catholic Magic is an Oxymoron
Date: 30 Apr 1996 17:01:30 GMT
Organization: The Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4m5h1a$3ic@nkosi.well.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: well.com
Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick:72719 alt.magick.tyagi:7942 alt.pagan:157472 alt.pagan.magick:491

93 Nagasiva,

>heidrick@well.sf.ca.us (Bill Heidrick):
>
>|Just aside from the externally trivial but internally major matter of
>|official = liturgy v. other = magic(k), most western grimories of
>|any historic note require Roman Catholic ordination for the rituals
>|to be done as written, unmodified.
>
>I have not found this is Lemegeton (though I don't have original copies
>here) or the Key of Solomon.  Where should we expect these requirements
>to be found?

This is most evident in the many lesser grimories.  See the collections of
Idres Shaw: _Secret Lore of Magic_
Waite: _Ceremonial Magic_ aka _Black Magick and Pacts_ -- Crowley started
        with this one.
Both the Greater and Lesser Keys have presumptive material of this sort,
but it's not as obvious.  Christian and Roman Catholic presumption is
somewhat concealed under pseudo attribution to Solomon.  Vestments
and other matter tend to be reflective of RC usage.

>Does this imply that RC ordination was considered 'standard' among mages
>who used 'most Western grimoires'?  You don't think you're overestimating
>the requirement of the Church and its influence?  Or is the case that what
>we have left of the grimoires was filtered through the Church and therefore
>makes note that nobody except people who have been trained to reside within
>the protection of God Almighty (tm) are qualified to effect it, magically?

"Exorcist" is a degree of RC lesser ordination.  Wherever you see that term
in magical texts of some age, that implies RC ordination most of the time.
The Grimorie of Honorous (Sworn Book) is not the only one.

As to the influence, remember that until the Reformation, to be Western
European was to be Roman Catholic (except for Southern Italy and Sicily --
Greek Christian).  Islam and Judaism were present in Europe, as well
as a bit of old religion in Scandinavia, but they were often ghettoised or
expelled from various places.  To read and write the language of these
magical texts, one had to go to a seminary, often as not.  After the
Reformation, Christian was still the presumption until pretty much the
20th century.

93 93/93
Bill