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From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.chaos
Subject: Re: Real Magick
Followup-To: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick
Date: 2 Jul 1996 04:10:24 -0700
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kaliyuga
49960701 AA1 (followup targetted)


tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva):
|>I have seen spells which were not at all clearly designed ahead of 
|>time work fine, as well as doing and watching people who were 
|>doing spells while not believing in the efficacy of magick at all.  
|>I'm not sure if actively DISbelieving in a spell while doing it 
|>will negate the effects.

Tzimon Yliaster <tzimon@crl.com>:
|I've never found rote reptition of formulae without knowledge, and 
|more importantly belief, backing it up to be at all effective.  

when you say 'effective', toward what effect are you speaking?  some
intend a very specific result external to themselves, for example,
while others attempt to change their SoC.


|I've never gotten any noticeable result from a magickplay/spell/working 
|in which I didn't have some belief, at least at the time I was doing it.  

that says something, coming from you (cuz of what I perceive to be your
chaotic/eclectic/imaginative approach and critical faculties).  thanks 
for the reflection.


|>|You cannot get magick to work by simply putting on a long robe and 
|>|muttering words you don't understand.

|>I'm not sure this is true.  I'd like to hear about anyone who has tried
|>this and found, through trial and error, that they could not achieve a
|>magical effect merely through rote application of formulae without a
|>firm belief or even an understanding.  hey, people can do spells from
|>Simon's Necronomicon, for crying outloud! ;>

|They can do it because, at least at the time of performing the initial 
|act, they believed that the thing was worth doing.  

in this I agree, but my point was about 'firm belief' and an understanding.
it seems to me that there must be some *sincerety of intent* involved,
even if no intellectual support for the efficacy of the rite (I'm thinking
now of things like folk magic and charms and whatnot which may not really
require either an in-depth knowledge to practically reproduce or a firm
belief in magick as a whole).


|Why else would they be doing it?

experiment, play, at least this is why they would be doing it aside from
that they believed that what was supposed to happen would (if they even 
knew this latter).  I'm thinking of teens who attempt magical spells on
account of their engagement of taboo, or those who may wish to 'prove'
to themselves (don't argue with me about what might actually prove it :>)
that it *doesn't* work.

on the other hand, some of my own spells and workings have arisen quite
on their own, without a conscious intent beforehand.  in this sense (not
so much formulae but a merging with the events of the moment) there might
not be a 'why' in the rational sense.  the only answer I could give is
'because it felt right'.

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva