Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.christnet,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan.magick Subject: "RCath Magick" is an Oxymoron (Re: Magickal Christians) Date: 14 Jul 1996 07:29:51 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 91 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4sb08v$hr7@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <31DDD418.840@metronet.com> <4rkqv6$ga5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ru6lk$qup@hermes.is.co.za> <4s3fo1$inj@jobe.shell.portal.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick:78857 alt.christnet:121713 alt.magick.tyagi:9378 talk.religion.misc:229344 alt.pagan.magick:1044 [WARNING: IF YOU EMAIL ME RESPONSES, I MAY REPLY IN PUBLIC, LIKE THIS!!] kaliyuga 49960714 AA1 (I've had this conv many times, btw) from private email, Khephera%363-263-777@satlink.oau.org (Khephera): |>|> there are the Catholics, who don't do magick. I'm sure if you asked |>|You have forgotten Catholic Mass, which is Magick. |>if you ask Catholics (Roman), they'll tell you it isn't, and that there |>are differences between the Work of the Mass and what magicians do. ;> |>I'm willing to accept them at their word. |The problem is that they are incorrect in saying so. the problem with presuming that they are incorrect in their expression is that we are discounting their experience and the fact that they are utilizing language to oppress. this is mostly my point, not whether the Mass may be interpreted from the outside as a magical act. |As a Wizard (and, even though I am Wiccan), ~~~~~~ what do you mean by this term? are you aware that to use it can imply a sort of arrogance? |I use a LOT of Christian Symbolism in what I do. where these symbols and forms derive is of relevance. much which is now considered 'Christian' was not originally so, but co-opted into a religious rite which now has less magical impact and impetus. |Not to mention I was a Christian Mage long before I was Wiccan. by most social standards there is no such thing as a 'Christian Mage', and to presume such neglects the fact that the Christian establishment opposes magical acts, politically, socially, ethically, etc. note, that I'm not saying you are incorrect in your language, just that if you begin to obscure this radical political difference through a defense of the co-option without acknowledging the oppression, you do yourself, your path ("pagan") and your community a supreme disservice. |I can also attest to a personal friend of mine, also a Wizard, who took a |years-long study of Catholocism (ie, actually attending the Mass and other |services, and doing the work- not just reading about it), you miss my point entirely. transubstantiation from a bit of bread and some fermented grape into the flesh and blood of one's god for the purposes of ritual cannibalism is indeed a magical act if it in fact takes place. the locus of activity, however, and where the source of that change is, is equally important. |and who would have a thing or two to say about Mass and Magick. I'm posting this to Usenet as part of that thread. I'm tired of this silly debate (not just with you, but with the 'Christian Magicians') in its rather simplistic and ill-conceived attempt to explain away the fact that what someone else says they aren't doing (and experiencing) which they then go on to oppose in the practices of others can be assessed and accepted without caveat and serious analysis. |Now, often Catholics will say that their Mass differs from our Magick |only in that theirs is "ordained by God" and ours is not. no, not just 'ordained', but EFFECTED. |This, of course, is a matter of opinion, but it is at least more along |the lines of being correct. 'correctness' is a matter of perception. |It wouldn't be correct, though, to say that Mass is structurally |different from any Magick... I'm not convinced yet. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nocTifer -- Ensure my response - CC public replies to email http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html (emailed replies may be posted) check: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/