From news.scruz.net!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!acsu.buffalo.edu!ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!OISPEGGY Mon May 5 16:59:01 1997 Path: news.scruz.net!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!acsu.buffalo.edu!ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!OISPEGGY From: oispeggy@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.christnet,alt.magick,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Magick and Creeds (Coptic) Date: 5 May 1997 14:13:05 GMT Organization: University at Buffalo Lines: 117 Message-ID: <5kkpth$2ln@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu> References: Reply-To: oispeggy@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu Xref: news.scruz.net alt.magick.tyagi:11006 alt.christnet:226151 alt.magick:95429 talk.religion.misc:267410 In article , tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) writes: > >I found the below at a Coptic Christian website > > http://cs-www.bu.edu/faculty/best/pub/cn/Home.html > .... > your analysis of >the below or any other creed (I am interested in all of them) with >respect to your understanding of magick or mysticism (rather than >merely some historical significance) is invited. This creed is said during the catholic mass and is referred to as the "Apostles Creed." There also is a "Nicene Creed." I forget what that is - might be the same thing. I've heard rumours to the effect that other christian churches also use the "Apostles Creed," but I cannot verify this. Catholic Church services are the only kind I ever attended. I do not count the three Unitarian services I tried as they didn't seem like anything. (The only remarkable thing about them was 2 of the 3 included a sermon describing the person's "coming out of the closet" reception, which I could care less about and I dislike being a captive audience having to view someone else's emotional underwear.) They did not say any creeds at all during the Unitarian Services and I found it dull and boring as hell. The most interesting thing I find about the "Apostles Creed" is that its the prayer that used to make me the most uncomfortable of all the prayers in the Catholic church, starting from a very young age. (I stumbled across the B.Gita in third grade and started to realize then that other cultures and religions were just as valid as my own.) The entire tone is so definite, like "this is how it works" and I always questioned how the heck anyone could know how it all works and who sits where and all that jazz. It was a major gack! turnoff for many years and I'd internaly cringe whenever I heard it, I found the thing so distasteful. Then after studying the QBL a few years I saw another inter- pretation, one less literal and more figurative, which makes more sense to me. "God the father" - Kether and "God the Sun/Son = Tipareth." "Born of the father before all ages. Light of light. True God of True God." It all makes sense now. Whereas before it sounded to me like a prayer full of ethnocentric bigotry and closed-mindedness, I now see it as a synopsis of the story of creation via the QBListic doctrine of emanations (with a few historical references tossed in). However, I now find the section on the "Holy Spirit" fucked. I've posted before that the greatest peculiarity I find within the Catholic Church is that Catholics really have no idea what the Holy Spirit is or what it is supposed to do. They changed the name from Holy Ghost to the Holy Ghost to make it seem less spook-like, but still no one knows what the heck it is. The only tangible thing it ever seems to have done was descend upon the Apostles as tongues of flame, giving them gnosis. IMO the Holy Spirit is the same as Isis, and the Egyptian Osiris/Isis/Horus is the same formula used by the Catholics only they call their gods Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Because the Catholic Church is so anti-female the female part of their pantheon -- the Holy Spirit -- has been neutered and is now disguised as a spook and makes no sense to the vast majority of Catholics (past, present, and future). The Holy Spirit is seldom mentioned and discussed even less often. But at some level the congregation must have detected something amiss because the common people have elevated the BVM (blessed virgin mary) into a central position. The Church hierarchy frowns on this and has consistently tried to suppress devotions to the BVM. They view it as supersitious nonsense of the ignorant sheep, blah, blah, blah. The fact that the current pople is a devote of the BVM annoys some of the more intellectual official. But not to worry, his devotion is more romantic than practical and he'll never ordain female priests or anything that treats the yang powers equal to that of the yin. (This repression of the yang is central to the magickal technology of the priests.) ... >and I wondered if any here have some notion as to how Creeds function >in relation to magick or if they are obstacle/goad. As to your question about whether creeds have a good or bad effect on magick, my answer is "either." This creed lends itself to interpre- tations that support the belief that christianity (or in this case Catholocism) is superior to any other religions. This IMO has a bad effect on magick. Well, I guess if you're a snivelling bigot it can have a good effect since your priorities would then be different than mine. Bzzzzzzt! This is all getting into the value-judgement thing. YMMV, but I find the ethnocentric interpretation of creeds to be offensive, and this particular one also continues the suppression of the yang, which I suppose can be effective (look at the history of the Catholic Church) but not much fun and basically unfair. (This IMO will catch up with them one of these days.) At the same time, this Creed has some undeniably lyrical moments and I find that when I interpret it QBListically it can have the "enflame oneself with prayer" type effect that I find very beneficial when doing magick. I suppose if you're really into the belief system from which this Creed originate is can have a much more powerful enflaming effect. Its not really all that powerful for me. I can get 10X the effect step-dancing in my kitchen (with the shades down) to NPR's "Thistle and the Shamrock" hour. I do not usually use prayers to get the "enflame oneself with prayer" effect, probably because I am not committed to any particular belief system. Most often I use very good poetry and/or devotions to Isis/BVM/the Empress (in Tarot) -- something about my internal workings makes this the most accessible path for me and I see these as the most powerful yang derived symbols. Depending on the working, if its less spiritual in nature I may use Ashtereth/St. Theresa of the Roses/the High Priestess (in Tarot). For some things I use the Sacred Infant formula or John the Baptist or the Archangel Michael. I am puzzed about why this Creed is titled the "Coptic Creed," when I've seen it under other titles. I got it! In this version its talking about "one Apolostolic and universal" church whereas the ones used in Catholic services say the "one Catholic Church" (some- thing like that). Protestants might use this same variation only using "catholic" according to its other meaning. >and also may peace be with you, You too. Shake, shake shake... shake or bake. - Peggy -