From news.scruz.net!kudo20!tyagi Sat May 3 10:49:36 1997 Path: news.scruz.net!kudo20!tyagi From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nigris (333)) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Magick and Science Message-ID: [Orig-To: thelema93-l@hollyfeld.org] [technical difficulties enforced delay -- apologies for outdatedness] 49970415 AA1 Hail Satan E6 nigris: #> one no more achieves Truth through consensus #> of external peer review than through an interior 'peer' of one's #> informed skepticism. some of it of course depends on how exacting #> our observation skills and bullshit detectors (esp. concerning #> our*selves*) have become. [person quoted wishes to remain anonymous]: #Just how exacting are our observation skills and bullshit detectors? this differs with each individual, of course. it is the reason that the exhortation to DOUBT DOUBT DOUBT becomes the watchword of the serious in the field. a critical self-analysis is an absolute requirement for those who would achieve anything in the fields of mysticism or magick. it is as much true that a balancing self-acceptance and affirmation plays an equally important part. [...] I think the emphasis on watching out for expectation and self-delusion is extremely important. I don't think that this is resolved by ignoring the self or the data which may be obtained through self-observation, tho. #It is generally considered poor practice to have the #"hypothesis developer" also do the testing. here we enter into an important and unexamined element of the magical discussion. is there an 'hypothesis' which is necessarily developed through magical enterprise? how shall we really marry science *and* art? I suggest that while there is a 'scientific approach' to magick in that a variety of knowledge-systems are created and refined within the discipline, that this is NOT MAGICK ITSELF until and unless there is a distinct expression of it to others (in which case it enters into deliberate acts like publishing, which Crowley described, and is evermore difficult to ferret out its scientific and artistic elements). in rite I notice that it isn't always some sort of intellectual hypothesis which is being 'tested' for 'repeatability' but a kind of QUALITATIVE VALUE which may be repeated. the rite is analyzed for elements necessary and obstructury, and then either the same or another rite involving similar elements is attempted. the process of refinement seeks its confirmation in the nature of the results (internal, external change). for this it is imperative that the individual doing the work also engage the refinement. as I've said elsewhere, however, this *can* be subjected to a kind of 'double-blind' (or at least single-blind) examination. #That's why so much #research is conducted using experimenters who are blind to the purpose #and hypothesis of the experiment. A non-blind experiementer can very #easily fall into the trap of "seeing what he expects to see." I agree this is a problem, both in the laboratory (a serious danger) as well as in one's magical practice (the Self-Delusory Power Ascent is well known in occult circles, though not generally acknowledge as such amidst popular sources as it preserves booksales and memberships). my point about blindness is to examine its PURPOSE. the double-blind is an objective-science tool which works well, but for the purposes of mystical or magical pursuits I think that the peer review amongst the skeptical (where a comparison exists between third-party results and the results perceived by the mage -- "reality check" -- occurs) should suffice if those who are doing the review really *are* peers. this requires a level of skepticism (in its literal sense, really looking closely, possibly requiring a great degree of intimacy) and honesty (which occult organizations may sway due to political pressure) that may not develop outside a working group dedicated to this purpose, and may explain why there are so many charlatans afoot. #I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter. *Our* goal is #spiritual attainment anyway, is it? I've heard this many times from 'magicians'. I question the value of any type of 'magick' which doesn't include the real develop- ment of an ability to cause change in the world external to us. this 'spiritual attainment' paradigm is too often co-opted into a social enslavement mechanism, based on who is more capable of licking boot. #so personal results, at least to me, are what's important. do what you please. discerning the personal results is the real issue, as we appear to have agreed. how this is effected is an issue which is seldom discussed and brings delusionary confidence-game schemes (or at least the real potential for them) under scrutiny. social organizations like 'occult orders' can be severely upset but such examinations, since we may call into question their ability to assist in the process of development whose results ("spiritual") they often tout as being uniquely qualified to offer. E6/6/6 _______________________________________________________________________________ nigris (333) -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ -- see http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html and call: 408/2-666-SLUG!!! ---- (emailed replies may be posted) ---- CC public replies to author ---- * * * Asphalta Cementia Metallica Polymera Coyote La Cucaracha Humana * * *