Path: Supernews!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc Subject: Types of Magick and Gods (was Re: Is all magick the same?) Date: 18 Jun 1997 15:47:30 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 117 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5o9oi2$5ne@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <5o1br4$tv$1@agate.nbnet.nb.ca> <19970616182000.OAA22500@ladder02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo20.kudonet.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews alt.magick.tyagi:12978 alt.magick:105640 alt.pagan.magick:4920 alt.pagan:218591 talk.religion.misc:298555 49970618 aa2 Hail Satan! "Draco-Morr" : #...there is only two true types of magick, with different uses for them. then let's begin by looking at what makes a TYPE. #The first is Priest Magick. This is were you pray, sacrifice, or such, #to a diety and ask them for power. This is the most basic form of Magick, #which most people do everyday. so you are classifying a type by POWER SOURCE here. practical process is to what you would attend when dividing up magick into categories. fine. you have said that prayer (we may infer what this includes) and sacrifice (obvious) in relation to a divinity for the procurement of power are essential to Priestly Magick (really 'theurgy'). you don't say whether the power is then available for the use of mage (per 'Clerics' in ADnD) or if the effects called upon by the priest merely manifest (miracles). #The Second is Elemental Magick. This is the power that derives from the #user and the basic elements. This is the magick which is more related to #magicians. here you display a possible cosmological bias in that you distinguish a divinity from 'the user' (presumably the mage) such that there appears to be no overlap or coincidence between the two. this roughly corresponds to the 'thaumaturgic' approach presented by RPGs 'mage' classifications. you do not state why the POWER SOURCE is so important that we should use it to distinguish the type of magick. assuredly this was and is still a very important quality *to the religious* (e.g. the Roman Catholics), who may place a great deal of importance on their presumption that their power comes from their god and that the magical acts of others come from less authoritative or benevolent entities (often termed 'demons' and the magick of competitors characterized as 'black' and/or 'sorcery'; cf. Simon Magus). meltdarok@aol.com (MeltDaRok): #The difference is only in the practitioner, it is basically the same. what I hear you saying is that the divinity is a component of the mage, and that the form of magick is identical, it is just the description of the source of power and the conceptualization after the fact which leads one to begin distinguishing between the two. #...magicians ...mostly try by ritual means to get the Deity to influence #factors in their environment for their own profit. this is true for theurgic or religious mages. some mages don't bother with gods (let alone any of the 'the God's) at all. #Since there is only one thing going on, no matter who or how people seek #to influence their environment, it is still the same process that must #be used. can you describe more concisely the elements of this process you see? whtmagick@aol.com (WhtMagick): #...there are dozens of different kinds of Magick.... yet you do not tell us how to distinguish them or what qualities would allow a responsible taxonomy. #Many if not most Priests in the conventional Religions/churches are #totally un-trained in Magick, and hence their invoations during a #mass/comunion are duds. I would not consider the various religious masses to be magical acts. having a god do something for someone is PRAYER (unless the god is supposed to reside within or be identical to the mage), and this is different than a direction of (even a deity's) power to achieve intentional ends. #"Religious magick" and/or "Priestly magick" relies on "Faith". A true #Magician relies upon his own knowledge and power, the only "Faith" he #needs is Faith in Himself. with this I agree, the mage must have sufficient faith in hirself in order to accomplish the task. in fact I think that this is the most imporant factor and years of study and practice mostly serve to bolster this faith. form and style are generally a kind of costumed dressing or symbolical application which may provide some degree of focus where the mind of the mage is less than precise in the manipulation of telismatic imagery. #...most magicians have some sort of religious background (and this can be #very helpful), but it isn't necessary. It is for this reason (religious #background/egregorie) that it is unwise for a person to renounce what #religious training he received as a child (prior to age 6). I would agree with the exception of those who feel a true conversion has taken place. #Eventually, the Magickal student becomes a "Self-Directed" person and has #no need at all for the usual (conventional) repressive/predatory religious #institution or structure (or the parasitic class of "Priests" that prey #upon the "faithful"). exactly, and this can occur under the direction and guidance of a magical instructor or as a solitary. blessed beast! tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -- (emailed replies may be posted) ------- join the AMT syncretism!!! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus ---------- call: 408/2-666-SLUG!! "Sure, kid. It's the truth. Trust me. Where's your money?" - TShuler