From occult-owner@hollyfeld.org Mon Apr 13 13:42:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (ns2.accesscom.com [205.226.156.3]) by shell.accesscom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18295 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:41:59 -0700 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07073 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:41:55 -0700 Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15932 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from occult-owner@hollyfeld.org) Received: from www.hollyfeld.org (dns.hollyfeld.org [204.130.199.1]) by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07332; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA28628 for occult-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:42:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: www.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-occult@hollyfeld.org using -f Received: from ns2.accesscom.com (ns2.accesscom.com [205.226.156.3]) by www.hollyfeld.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA28617 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:41:12 -0400 Received: from shell.accesscom.com (tyagi@shell.accesscom.com [205.226.156.10]) by ns2.accesscom.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07030; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:40:33 -0700 Received: (from tyagi@localhost) by shell.accesscom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18201; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:40:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199804132040.NAA18201@shell.accesscom.com> Subject: (O) Magick, Religion and Beginnings (was Magic vs. Religion) In-Reply-To: <352E13F7.A5E64F7C@engr.uky.edu> from Gerrit Kitts at "Apr 10, 98 08:43:35 am" To: seekers@tardis.ed.ac.uk Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:40:35 -0700 (PDT) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-occult@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: occult@hollyfeld.org Status: RO 49980413 aa2 Hail Satan! originating within seekers elist of religion, magick, and beginnings re the difference between my experience of magical workings both inside and outside of religion: most of my magical rites have been within the context of religion as summonings, invocations, empowerings of magical tools (for some odd reason I feel these are religious, hmmm), and the occasional pilgrimmage and/or pact. the one which comes to mind which was not was a healing that I did for a friend a long time ago. I danced up some energy to a tape I made for the occasion, and sent it her way to see to her recovery from some illness. there was something missing from the rite, I felt, it was like trying to sail without wind, or pushing a bike from behind instead of riding it. re Wicca and my personal history: I've studied Wicca (Gardnerian) and been exposed to a variety of rites inclusive of Feri, Thelemic and Asatru things. my own style is far less organized and more intuitive, urban shamanic, and I'm extremely eclectic, incorporating symbols and ideas from a number of religious and magical sources to which I've been exposed (from Western Hermetic and conventional religious to Eastern paths like Buddhism and Taoism). for several years I was focussed largely on my own development, though this gradually shifted as I took guidance from my goddess to a more ecological and political intent, extending beyond the sphere of my life. as I've broadened by nonritual activities I've done ritual less and less often, more like punctuations or sealings on material-world projects and turning points in life. re the recommendation of Kraig's _Modern Magick_ for beginners: I can see why people recommend this book, especially if one is predisposed to this type of rite. I am not, and when I came across the text I felt it was a kind of inadequate substitute for Golden Dawn or Crowleyan materials. perhaps it does function as a kind of stepped-down Hermetic source, though I feel it lacks the depth of those above whose works I found inspirational to my ritual and life in a way I can not easily describe, broader of vision and application. for *certain* beginners this book would be great. for others I think that books like Ashcroft-Nowicki's _First Steps in Ritual_ or even Barton's _Church of Satan_ accompanied with _The Satanic Rituals_ would be better. Weinstein's _Positive Magic_ would be the other end of the spectrum, I suppose, and some of Regardie's books _The Middle Pillar_ or _A Garden of Pomegranates_ strike me as more approachable first praxis for the dedicated Hermetic. then again, most of these can be considered the 'no religion necessary or included' books. Neopagans might find Llewellyn a better beginning publisher and writers like Cunningham's _A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner_ or even a batch of compiled spells as a good intro. Mountainwater, Valiente and of course _Spiral Dance_ of Starhawk have successfully been used as beginning magical workbooks. I don't think that we're just talking about learning a very specific, rote, impersonal activity, and that is part of the reason that a number of sources (geared toward the tastes of the reader/worker) may be valuable from which to choose. my impression is that people sometimes take what is given in these beginning books and *craft their own style of material*. for this reason even books like the _Necronomicon_, however facetiously intended, can become important basics from which to branch and grow our own. re how well written Kraig's text was as a reference source: I didn't find it so well written, but I probably have unusual tastes. I felt the author was somewhat overgeneralized, at times pompous, and too stuck in his way of doing things. I'd also heard his tapes on 'proper pronunciation of the magical words' (or whatever he called it). it was great to hear what *he* thought they should sound like. as I like variety I have a difficult time taking his instructions as 'gospel', however. ;> plus I prefer to work in my own vernacular or that of my own ("elven") glossolalia than Hebrew or some other Judeochristian remnant. re Kraig's intentionally included errors to trip up the unwary: I don't personally find such 'tests' valuable, and think it is somewhat irresponsible (or deceptive if the errors were discovered after the fact :>) for him to do that. I suppose it could be treated like a puzzle or something, or even a test for those who like this kind of thing, but for those of my taste I think we'd find his whole approach to be too didactic, restricting, and over-hyped. some beginners may need that but I have never liked such approaches. when I first began reading books on magick I wasn't all that interested in ritual, finding the esoteric philosophy and the arcane notion of having 'books of power' around intriguing. I started in this way with Crowley (one of his silly QBListic exploits about which I still have little understanding: titled _Konx Om Pax_ -- I put it in my magic box next to the magic candles and a variety of other power objects). later I really started to read the texts with an eye to gleaning their depth and did this with _Magic in Theory and Practice_ by Crowley and published by Dover (there are entire copies of Book Four, or _Liber ABA_ as it is now called, available from my Order). Crowley's writing was similar to the philosophy I was reading in association to this (Buddhism, Western and Eastern philosophers of consciousness). many of the ideas I found in Crowley's text (and later in Bonewits' _Real Magic_) broadened my perspective on what magic *could* be about, how I might find application for it in my life, and what subtle and concrete actualities it might have (through astral/imaginal and later material workings) in the course I had set myself upon (becoming a wizard in a world where such things where considered fanciful or insane). blessed beast! __________________________________________________________________________ nagasiva -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com; http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/ caution: I don't read all posts, filtering out those of < a # of bytes. 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