From tyagi@bjt.net Wed Dec 18 02:38:57 1996 Return-Path: tyagi@bjt.net Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA22523 for ; Wed, 18 Dec 1996 02:38:53 -0500 Received: by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA15627; Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:28:24 -0800 Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:28:24 -0800 Message-Id: <199612180628.WAA15627@kudonet.com> To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org Subject: Magick/9612.lbrpcrs.fp From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Status: O >Path: kudonet.com!news.scruz.net!legba.synergy.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail >From: frpneumas@aol.com (Fr Pneumas) >Newsgroups: alt.magick >Subject: Re: Qabalistic Cross; In What Order? >Date: 16 Dec 1996 17:12:09 GMT >Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com >Lines: 78 >Message-ID: <19961216171100.MAA15017@ladder01.news.aol.com> >References: <19961216044600.XAA27375@ladder01.news.aol.com> >NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com >X-Admin: news@aol.com Greetings: frankie@peoples.net wrote on Sun, 15 Dec 1996 as follows: >>>I have seen two chronological versions of this Ritual. In one the movement, and intonation, are right (Geburah) to left (Gedulah); the other is vice versa.<<< >>>The first seems more semantically correct ie. "The Power and The Glory", but the second way "feels" more right.<<< >>>Any answers?<<< Your question is a good one. There are several answers. First of all, I would have you consider the concept of *standing between the pillars* as you perform the Qabalistic Cross... Are you facing the East (between them) or are you facing the West (between them)... It does make a difference. ;-) The connotations are very different. In one form you are outside looking in, whereas in the second perspective you are inside looking out. Secondly, if you were raised Catholic, remember that the Catholic Church does indeed use the inverse order of the traditional right to left when they cross themselves - i.e. they go left to right. Perhaps that could be why it feels *right* for you to go left and then right. ;-) Of course, I don't know your background. I submit to you that 1) when facing East from behind your *double cube* altar and performing the QC ritual, it is correct to use the right to left version - as you yourself indicated that you are aware of the wording... "The Power and The Glory" (etc). What you are doing is seeing the Pillars beside you and you yourself being the middle pillar. You are internalizing the power correctly ;-) However, if further submit to you that 2) if you are entering this ritual in a mindset of *Divinity* - and I use the term loosly here - as being *outside* of yourself, then it would be appropriate, IMO to use the *Christian* - i.e. the Catholic - form of the cross in the QC Ritual. ;-) Then again, I am a High Ceremonial *Christian* Magician, thus I would have this biased perspective! LOL! I did train with the traditional method first (right to left). I use this form more often than the other myself. To which kdawn93@aol.com responded to your post on 16 Dec 1996 04:46:40 GMT as follows: >>First- just a question- why were there 10 of your same message here?<< That is a good question KDawn... Computers! :-/ The poor student probably didn't even know that he sent the thing a couple of times... You then continue: >>Second, for your question, I can't answer for everyone but in the lodges I am familiar with it is always done right to left, but that is only during a banishing ritual.<< This is an interesting note. I've not heard of it done differently for Banishing vs Invoking... :-) This makes some sense, though the QC Ritual is a *prepatory* rite for banishing or invoking - whether in conjunction with the LBRP or LBRH - or other Pentagram or Hexagram ritual. :-) >>Perhaps it is done differently in other arenas. - KDawn93<< Where ever you find more than one independently thinking for him/herself magician, you are bound to find more than one way to do the same thing with similar results, IMO... ;-) Nice reading your fine posts - both of you. I look forward to hearing from Ya'll again... :-) Until then, I remain most sincerely, Yours in The Light, Fr Pneumas (Michael W. Humphrey) Chief Adept & National President, SCMOASA (The Astral Star) National Advisory Board Member, AMER *finis*