From tyagi@bjt.net Sat Nov 23 14:21:06 1996 Return-Path: tyagi@bjt.net Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA04087 for ; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:21:01 -0500 Received: from kudo20.kudonet.com by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA02194; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:09:29 -0800 Received: by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17417; Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:01:52 -0800 From: tyagi@bjt.net (Tyagi Nagasiva) Message-Id: <199611231901.LAA17417@kudo20.kudonet.com> Subject: Enochia/9611.deediar.tn To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 11:01:51 -0800 (PST) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O >From enochian-l-owner@hollyfeld.org Fri Nov 22 10:40:11 1996 X-Authentication-Warning: bitsy.hollyfeld.org: majordom set sender to owner-enochian-l using -f Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 13:18 EST Message-Id: <2.2.16.19961122131710.132fddc4@megalinx.net> X-Sender: browe@megalinx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: enochian-l@hollyfeld.org From: Josh Norton Subject: Re: Are the angels real? Sender: owner-enochian-l@hollyfeld.org Precedence: bulk content-length: 2418 At 11:39 AM 11/21/96 -0800, nocTifer wrote: > >Josh Norton : >#...I can't think of any modern novelist (with the >#possible exception of James Joyce) who could put together the entire seven >#years worth of diaries deliberately. > >to which diaries do you refer? I've not yet seen them. I thought this would have been clear from previous posts here, but... Dee kept a session-by-session transcript of all their dealings with the angels, hundreds of pages worth of highly detailed records in eight or nine books. This included a verbatim record of everything said by the angels, Kelly's reports of what he saw in the shewstone, things they both witnessed (e.g. the miraculous appearance of a new shewstone given by the angels), and details of D&K's discussions and personal problems that related to the operations. There is so much detail that the idea of deliberate fabrication seems to me to lack any sort of credibility. Large portions of the diaries have been published. Meric Casaubon's _A True and Faithful Relation_ contains the portion related to the Calls and Tablets, and is still available in a facsimile edition. Joseph Peterson's edition of Dee's _Mysteriorum Libri Quinti_ details the earlier Heptarchic magickal system and the start of _Liber Logaeth_. Suggest you acquire and read them for yourself before talking any more about alternate paradigms. >#What prestige? I think you are invalidly reasoning backwards from Dee's >#current reputation to his reputation during his lifetime. He was very much a >#secondary character in Elizabethan society. If I were looking for >#prestigious occult connections in those days, .... > >I meant something on the order of 'making a mark in history'. something >not resulting in immediate response but putting one into the recorded >history of occultism as a master magician. I don't see how Kelly could possibly have known that Dee would have a reputation as a magician in later centuries. Or are you crediting him with the ability to foresee the future? The records of the operations weren't publicly available until sixty years after Kelly's death, and most of them only surfaced by sheer chance. In Kelly's time, there was no reason to think that they would ever become public knowledge. Ben ------------------------ Reality leaves a lot to the imagination. -- John Lennon Josh Norton (aka Benjamin Rowe) -- browe@megalinx.net ----- End of forwarded message from Josh Norton -----