Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn14feed!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!204.127.198.203!attbi_feed3!attbi.com!rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3EAAC5A7.82682FE9@slip.net> From: "Fr. A.o.C." Organization: Temple of the Quintupal Triplicity X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.order,alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Re: OSOGD: New Website Updates References: <3EA6FFE1.75011918@slip.net> <3EA78D81.AD1C776A@pacbell.net> <3EA7A58E.489A2DF7@slip.net> <3EA98B1C.B5E189E5@pacbell.net> <250420032322476362%Minderbinder@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 107 NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.233.48.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@attbi.com X-Trace: rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net 1051379111 12.233.48.58 (Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:45:11 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:45:11 GMT Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:45:11 GMT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:344072 alt.magick.order:7402 alt.pagan.magick:37028 alt.magick.tyagi:39753 Yet another Re O'Stat sock puppet, Milo Minderbinder wrote: > > > > Fr. A.o.C. wrote: > > > > > > Clarification: we sold and are selling nothing. > > > > > > Just yourselves. Really? How much did we get paid for ourselves? > > > At least you're showing what your club is focused on. > > > > Practical magic? We know what you're focused on... > > > > Al > > THE GD had for a goal to help members become "more than human" As if that goal and practical magic were mutually exclusive. Arguably the Arum Solis in it's original form was every bit as concerned with theurgy and magical illumination, solidly based in the WMT, as any incarnation of the Golden Dawn. But they also devoted a great part of their Enochian system, "De Rebus Enochianis", to the working of practical magic. > Sam's Linuxed GD has for a goal making trinkets. Well, Re, if you call that "making trinkets", then scrying in the spirit vision is "scrunching up your eyes real tight and pretending to see things." But hey, I come from a background in Chaos Magic myself, which has no prejudice against obtaining results in noumenal reality. 'This is anathema to the more 'mystical' amongst magicians, particularly the Christian and pseudo-Christian types, whose main demand of magic seems to be that it never does anything concrete at all. Instead it seems sufficient to shut their eyes, breathe a little differently than normal, and then imagine a series of castles and caves until convinced some entity or another has contacted them. This entity usually assures them that they are on the right path (which of course proves the entity is genuine) and then imparts some gem of wisdom that has them setting up orders and working groups, until apotheosis arrives in the form of a publishing contract.' Seems the only time the old Order's members lowered themselves to results magic is when they were pissed off at each other, like Mathers and his magic rattling cans of peas. There's some "more than human" for ya! There are also important aspects to practical magic that directly enhance one's ability to work with high magic. The unfortunate tendency of so many GD groups to regard "sorcery" as beneath them are missing something important and useful. Obtaining results in the 'outside world' has a profound psychological effect on the practitioner, particularly the lesser experienced ones. It confronts the discursive mind head-on with the realization that MAGIC IS REAL in a way that intellectual argument, inner "pathworking" and "religious faith" cannot. This makes success with all other forms of magical practice all the less difficult to obtain. Practical magic also forces one to confront one's own ethics and motivations on a personal level. An Adept must have a moral compass, and the old normalizing influence of Church and State that was effective in the 19th century of the classical GD has vanished in the 21st. In our time, standing on the shifting sands of morality, having some practical experience with one's personal ethics is of immense value to one who would be an Adept. Bringing about changes in one's Sphere of Sensation through the sheer application of Will also brings about changes in oneself. There is no better demonstration of the dictum, "as above, so below." Another is the recognition that we always must exist in the real world. There is no dichotomy between "profane" and "divine"; ALL is divine. The unfortunate tendency to accept the illusion that one is separate from the outside world and the "High Magician" is somehow "above" it -- that he or she (and by extension, their Order) is divine and the rst of the world is profane -- has led to all kinds of problems that manifest FAR TOO OFTEN (*ahem*) in so many Golden Dawn groups today. "Successful sorcery requires that we pay attention to the world as it is, rather than how we would like it to be. One of the great pitfalls in magical development is the tendency for people to, when the going gets tough, withdraw themselves into a safe fantasy world and count themselves kings of infinite space. Sorcery, which is concerned with the everyday world, can help us keep our feet on the ground, which is very important for those who would reach for the stars." -- Phil Hine. So sure, our Order encourages the working of practical magic. It makes for better, more capable Adepts. If anyone wants to denigrate the value of it, well *shrug*... it's their loss. > Whatever. So much for intelligent debate. - Fr. A.o.C. "The Archchancellor polished his staff as he walked along. It was a particularly good one, six feet long and quite magical. Not that he used magic very much. In his experience, anything that couldn't be disposed of with a couple of whacks from six feet of oak was probably immune to magic as well." -- Terry Pratchett