Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3C9E4DA2.7E79@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.lucky.w,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic Subject: Re: Help References: <4146380c.0203230254.554b2836@posting.google.com> <3C9D1A1A.5139@luckymojo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 146 Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:52:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.105 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1017006776 209.204.150.105 (Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:52:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:52:56 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:294242 alt.lucky.w:11250 alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic:33777 Tom wrote: > > Research has shown placebos to vary widely in effect. The figure Cat > is using is based on the 1950's research of H. K. Beecher. She'd be > well advised to look at more recent research rather than make sweeping > declarations based solely on a single study done 50 years ago. Hey! Thanks for the further data. I'd like to rearrange the studies you mentioned, not to dispute them, but to attempt to sort them between psychiatirc disorders and non-psyciartic disprders: PSYCHIATRIC PLACEBO EFFECT > The UCLA Neuropsychiatric Center reports placebos effective in 30 - > 60% of the cases. > > Kirsh and Sapirstein, University of Conneticutt, in a study of the > effects of anti-depressants, found that 75% of the effectiveness of > the medication was placebo effect. NON-PSYCHIATRIC PLACEBO EFFECT - no studies cited by Tom. UNSPECIFIED (PSYCHIATRIC VERSUS NON-PSYCHIATRIC) PLACEBO EFFECT > Sapirstein further did a meta-analysis of 39 research studies done > between 1974 and 1995, finding that placebos worked about 50% of the > time. > > Danish researchers Asbjorn Hrobjartsson and Peter C. Gotzsche, in a > meta-study of 114 studies involving placebos, found little evidence in > general that placebos had *any* powerful clinical effects. > > Roberts, A. H., D. G. Kewman, L. Mercier, and M. Hovell did a study in > 1993 in which they reported a variety of results ranging from almost > 100% in some studies to a low of 32%, declaring that "under conditions > of heightened expectations, the power of nonspecific effects > (placebos) far exceeds that commonly reported in the literature." Tom wrote: > In cases of psychogenic problems, those which have no detectable > physical basis, placebos seem to be remarkably effective, while in > cases of actual physical ailments, they are considerably less > effective overall. Understood -- and thank you for clarifying my own thinking on this. I see that you quoted studies citing a placebo effectiveness rate ranging from 0% ["little evidence ... [of] ... clinical effect"] to 75% -- so i guess i could range my previously stated 30% upward to -- what 37%? -- taking in both psychogenic and non-psychogenic illness. > > In your second post, you desdribe very erratic behaviour by > > the woman; this suggests mental illness. > > No, it doesn't. It does suggest a certain amount of hysteria, but > that isn't classed as a "mental illness". I am referring to her calling him for help because she was enduring a "psychic attack" by "unseen presences" in the night, then shunning him the next day. (I am assuming his depiction of events is accurate here, for the sake of discussion.) That is more than hysteria to me -- it is socially inappropriate to the point of being a red flag, in my book. > > Next comes the topic of nguyen's actual question: How do you sort > > the mentally ill from the actually cursed? > > > > Knowing the forms that curses take within each culture will help you > > to sort the truly afflicted from the mentally ill. If a person's > > description of a "psychic attack" seems drawn from horror movies or > > role-playing games, or is a jumble of the curse-systems of several > > cultures that have been popularized in "spooky" books about > > witchcraft, or if they tell you that they have been seeking a cure > > for their curse for 20 years or more, you might be well advised to > > wonder if they are they are suffering the magical equivalent of > > hypchondriasis or if they are chronically mentally ill. > > > > If, however, they present as oriented, alert-yet-troubled, coherent > > in speech, with curse-symptoms that are appropriately culturally > > enframed, and they can provide a specific onset and time-line for > > the curse, you can proceed on the assumption that they are not > > mentally ill. If their cultural paradigm includes use of physical > > objects in cursing and they provide examples of physical evidence > > that a curse is being engaged against them (powders thrown for them, > > artifacts left at their premises or stolen therefrom), you can be > > pretty sure that someone is working against them. Ask them if they > > know who might be doing the work; if the answer is socially > > appropriate within their culture's curse-paradigm, again you will > > have accumulated evidence that they are probably not mentally ill. > > Cat forgets that a person's description of a "psychic attack" drawn > from horror movies of role-playing games is part of the culture of > white America. Good point -- i know exactly what you mean, and i was overlooking that. Actually, i don't meet many of those people. Most of the people who phone me for help with presumed curses come from immigrant or minority populations. They are people upon whom what some call "mall culture" has not had a big impact. Interestingly, Siva gets more querying or "help me!" email from the middle-class, middle-American "mall culture" people than i do, especially those worried about religious issues. > Like many overcompensating radical anti-American > politicos from the '60's, I am? > she thinks other people's cultures are > sacred truths while the culture of white America is a lie. I do? > So, a delusion couched in symbols of another culture > must be a genuine curse while a delusion couched in white > American culture must be a mental illness. I didn't say that. I said that if a person presents evidence that someone is physically working against them (e.g. they saw powders thrown, they found a bowl of rice with 4 pennies in it on their doorstep, etc.), i am inclined to believe that they are not making up a "curse scenario" as a result of mental illness. The trouble with "mall culture" concepts of cursing is that they consist in large part of movie special effects, and people who complain to me that they are suffering from movie special effects (balls of light rolling toward them in dark alleys, green glowing auras around kitchen appliances, spontaneous combustion of household pets) do tend to sound mentally ill when compared to people who tell me that they caught their boyfriend's ex-girlfriend buying black candles at the local drug store. It's just a question of how far i am willing to stretch my own belief in the client's hold on reality. > It's the opposite of ethnocentrism. > Ethnodecentrism, if you will. I like that term. I don't think it is a very apt description of my attitude, but it is a cool idea nonetheless. cat yronwode Lucky W Amulet Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3CA30406.1BB8@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.lucky.w,altparanormal.spells.hexes.magic Subject: Lifting Curses (was: Re: Tom Deluded? References: <20020321105043.08082.00000263@mb-fe.aol.com> <5740c929.0203221606.9a22b02@posting.google.com> <5740c929.0203271535.1f2e87bb@posting.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 100 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:40:09 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1017315609 209.204.150.68 (Thu, 28 Mar 2002 03:40:09 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 03:40:09 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:295107 alt.lucky.w:11335 Asiya wrote: > "nguyen" wrote: > > "Asiya" wrote: > > > > > I haven't witnessed or experienced anything > > > to convince me that the effects of "curses" and "psychic > > > attacks" are anything more than a result of belief in them. > > > They take the form of psychological manipulation and are > > > reinforced by the belief in "bad luck". > > > > Well the point is that your experience if I don't miss my guess > > was not focused on investigating and studying the picture of > > these things. > > > > An experienced practioner develops systematic investigatory, > > testing, and symptom-diagnostic methods in order to discern in > > a particular case based on specific details how it should be > > classified. > > Surely. I am open to a different view, but to date, have not > seen anything that shows that curses and such are different > from psychological manipulation, delusion, etc. No one is trying to convince you of anything, just asking you to keep an open mind and to treat the beliefs of others with respect. The field of magic is enormous -- and i can tell you that in my years, there are many magical states and conditions claimed by others which *i* have never personally "witnessed or experienced" either. For instance, i have never personally "witnessed or experienced" evidence for reincarnation -- but many people in these newsgroups, practicing magicians as well as religionists of various stripes, fully believe in this and tell me it is "fact." (I have "witnessed or experienced" visitations by ghosts (spirits of the dead), but they never mentioned reincarnation to me.) > > > Haven't had anyone yet come to me to lift a curse. Not sure how > > > I would handle that, probably just try to show sympathy for > > > their present situation and explain that curses only have power > > > if you give them that power. > > > > While I think from your presentation that you would likely be > > kindly toward such persons, you would also be likely of little > > help. Consider some alternatives. > > > > A magicial practioner may encounter somebody with a real > > persistent health or socio-economic problem that needs addressing > > but is characterized as a curse. The practioner needs to be able > > to accurately diagnose and then refer or directly use magical > > remedy and consulation to assist that person. > > > > The person may be suffering from a delusion. The characteristic of > > a delusion is that a person is not being reasonable. Therefore > > reasoning with a person who is deluded will generally get you > > nowhere. Psychological intervention methods must be far more > > sophisticated. > > > > You may encounter someone suffering from psychological > > manipulation, and in which case any experienced psychological > > practioner can tell you that just telling them to "snap out of it" > > often does not work. You have to get inside their heads and help > > them find a solution that they can recognize and actualize. > > Okay, I agree to all this. I definitely wouldn't just tell someone > to snap out of it, and didn't mean to imply that if I did. I would > talk with them, and listen, offer advice. People in the "real" world > are strongly influenced by my advice. > > Since I don't view curses as real, I would not be comfortable with > providing a placebo (doing *any* pseudo-magickal work to lift a > "curse"). That to me is a magickal equivalant of telling someone to > just snap out of it - it's blowing them off. Nguyen's analysis of how "cursed" clients may be sorted is exceptionally good advice: he breaks the problem down into three types: medical/social/legal problems, delusions, and cases of psychological manipulation. Where he (and i and Dr. Kioni and Chistopher Warnock, among others) differ from you is this: we believe that curses exist as a subset of magical practice and magical reality -- and we believe that they can be adressed or remedied through magical as well as social and physical means. Because we have some experience with this sort of work, we tend to use a "triage" model of treatment -- we first sort through the pressing social/medical/legal needs (rent piad? abusive boyfriend out of the home? in touch with psychiatric support system? lawyer working on the case? tested fopr dioabetes?) and then we recommend magical work. You need not believe what we ourselves have "witnessed or experienced" in the way of curses -- but it is good manners to allow that we are speaking our truths and that we are neither deluded nor trying to scam anyone. Okay? Thanks. cat yronwode The Mage's Guide to the Internet ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/magi Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3CA39EF1.6F2B@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.lucky.w,altparanormal.spells.hexes.magic Subject: Re: Lifting Curses (was: Re: Tom Deluded? References: <20020321105043.08082.00000263@mb-fe.aol.com> <5740c929.0203221606.9a22b02@posting.google.com> <5740c929.0203271535.1f2e87bb@posting.google.com> <3CA30406.1BB8@luckymojo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:41:06 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.195 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1017355266 209.204.150.195 (Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:41:06 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:41:06 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:295236 alt.lucky.w:11342 Asiya wrote: > > "catherine yronwode" wrote > > Nguyen's analysis of how "cursed" clients may be sorted is > > exceptionally good advice: he breaks the problem down into three > > types: medical/social/legal problems, delusions, and cases of > > psychological manipulation. > > He also mentioned another type: "A person may be suffering from > malefic magic or spirit activity. While this category is rare, it > does not occur as psychological manipulation. People who do real > black magic(k) almost never warn their victims for various reasons." > > That, I assume, is where the "really cursed" people fit in, in his > point of view. Thanks for catching that -- i didn't get it. As i see it (not trying to interpret nguyen here, just speaking for myself), all four types may be "really cursed" but the first three can also have other etiologies and may need other forms of intervention in addition to magic. cat yronwode Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3CB3D556.24B7@luckymojo.com> From: catherine yronwode Reply-To: cat@luckymojo.com Organization: Lucky Mojo Curio Co. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: protection References: <3cb33248$1@corp-news.newsgroups.com> <3CB34124.2CFD@luckymojo.com> <59Ps8.137$3r5.119020@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 281 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 05:49:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.204.150.226 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1018417792 209.204.150.226 (Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:49:52 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 22:49:52 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:296969 Tom wrote: > > Cat doesn't subscribe to alt.magick to discuss magick. She's here > trolling for gullible customers. > "anon" wrote: > > > Hi I have this weird feeling that some one is using occult powers > > on me.I have studied magic out of interst but I didnt really get > > into it.My question is how do you protect yourself other than > > prayer ect., without using black magic. Tom asked me to send you more advice, anon. Here it is: Understand that i am not a gifted psychic and i do not know if a curse really was put on or not, but in the remainder of this post, i am going to tell you what folks in this situation have used to help themselves and have found worked for them. If you have been having bad luck for a long time or are suffering from an unnatural illness, you may have been cursed, goofered, crossed or jinxed, or someone has put roots on you. You may not know who did it...but you may suspect and even be able to remember how it was done. There are numerous traditional ways to determine if one is under a spell, has been cursed, is ensorcelled, has suffered a bewitchment, is being hag-ridden, and so forth. When it comes to scrying or otherwise discovering who has sent a magical attack, the best-known method for determining this comes from German folk-magic, and is found in African-American hoodoo as well. Basically, the usual technique is to take something of the person you suspect -- say food that they gave you, or a letter they wrote, or anything connected with them, and to boil it in water or fry it in a pan or throw it in a stove-fire or a fireplace-fire. The witch will come running and beg you to stop hurting her. If you suspect several people, try cooking something from each one on a different day; the witch will identify him or herself on that day, and the others will be proven innocent. A second form of divination in regard to this question is to consult a reader, psychic, metaphysical consultant, or seer. One possible problem with this is that in among the truly sincere readers of the world, there are many con artists and cheaters who pose as readers. Before you send money to anyone who promises to psychically diasgnose your condition or to remove a curse, please read my free, informative web page on what to expect from a a good -- and a phoney -- reader or root worker. The page is at http://www.luckymojo.com/blackgypsies.html After you read that page, you will be better informaed and will be less likely to fall prey to a con artist "reader." A third form of divination in regard to the question of whether you were cursed is to construct a special horoscope called a horary chart on the question. In order to do this, the astrologer needs to know the time and place where you asked the question. You may pay someone for this service or -- if you post in the usenet newsgroup alt.luck.w -- you can ask the question of Chris Warnock, a traditional astrologer who may kindly reply to your posted question on the subject of whether you are cursed. If you are interested in getting a reading on this matter, performed according to the Renaissance Horary Astrology methods of William Lilly, you can contact the astrologer Christopher Warnock. Through his Rebaissance Astrology site, http://www.renaissanceastrology.com you can learn about how "horary astrology is used to obtain accurate predictions of particular questions." According to Chris, "Horary means 'of the hour' and answers questions by casting a horoscope, a detailed map of the Heavens, for the time, date and location in which a question was asked. Almost any serious question can be answered through horary astrology." Chris charges for his services ($50.00 to cast and interpret a chart answering any serious question), but for newbies to the internet and to astrology he also offers a FREE service on one particular question -- YOUR question: "have i been cursed?" To take advantage of the free service, you must post the question with the subject line "Am I Cursed?: Chris Warnock" to the usenet newsgroup news:alt.lucky.w (not to alt.magick) and in the question, you must state * what happened that has led you to think you are cursed, * who you suspect of casting the spell * the place you are when asking the question, and * the date and the time of day you are asking the question. Chris needs the place, date, and time the question is asked to construct the horary astrology chart, so don't forget those particulars. His answer to the question will be made according to William Lilly's classical writings on the subject and will be posted to the newsgroup. As a part of this free service, you are expected to respond in the newsgroup to Chris' post with a candid reply indicating how accurate the reading is with respect to the physical appearance of the curser (if one is found to exist). Chris wants this feedback to help him understand the limits, if any, of William Lilly's methods of physical identification from astrological indicators -- and this is in part why he makes the free offer; he is a student of the material as well as an authority in the subject. If your attempts at divination produce a negative reply -- for instance, if no witch appears when you boil the article(s) or if a horary chart discloses no signs of a curse, then you will have to consider that your fears are groundless. There are certain reasons for this, of which the most common is probably a mental condition known as OCD or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which is characterized by intrusive thoughts of doubt or fear about the present or the near future. Because these doubts originate in the mind without apparent real-life causes, some people with OCD erroneously come to think they have been "bewitched." Okay, assuming now that you HAVE been cursed, bewitched, jinxed, crossed, or subjected to a magical attack, the following information may help: "Crossing" is a uniquely African concept in magic, a sub-set of the African magical tradition known as "footprint magic," whereby one can affect another by * gathering up their footprint-dirt and working with it * causing them to step upon or walk across something (e.g. Crossing Powder or Hot Foot Powder) that will harm them * causing them to contact with their foot something that will bend them to your will (e.g. Court Case Root or Essence of Bend-Over) * placing something in their shoe to harm them (e.g. Goofer Dust) * collecting one of their socks and working with it. One common way to cross someone is to sprinkle Crossing Powder, Hot Foot Powder, or Goofer Dust across their trackway or doorstep, or dress their socks or shoes. I have even heard of women who will dress their own privates so that a man will drag himself in it and lose his nature or jinx up his love life. Another way to fix a person is to get something personal of theirs and stop it up in a bottle with roots and nails, pins, or needles. Your hair may have been gotten this way, or a piece of your clothing, or your personal concerns. This trick may have been done to you by an enemy to control you, dominate you, or get revenge on you by destroying your happiness in love and money matters. If you want to undo this sort of work, it helps to know who put the jinx on you so you can call their name back at them, but even if you don't know who did it or how it was done, there are things you can do to take off the jinx. Check around your home and see if you can find something that anyone could have secretly put there to jinx you, like burying something in your front yard. If you find something, like a bottle with personal effects, roots, or hairs in it, dig it up and burn it or throw it away in running water. Even if you can't find such a thing, you may have been fixed with some mess sprinkled on your food or on your shoes. People who believe they have been cursed or crossed often find relief by performing a spell or series of spells to cleanse themself of the jinx. No great expense need be involved. In fact, you can perform the work yourself, or have a worker do it for you. (Do not fall for practitioners who say they will clear you of a jinx for five hundred or a thousand dollars!!!). It may take a while, so be patient, but you will get over in the end and things will then go better for you. The simplest such spell that i know consists of reciting the 37th Psalm from the Bible ("Fret not thyself with evil-doers...") while bathing with uncrossing herbs (such as rue or hyssop) between two white candles, then carrying a pan of the bath-water to a crossroads and throwing it toward the east at sunrise. Another very simple spell to remove a curse is to rub a raw unbroken egg over the body or to sweep the body in the form of a cross. These rituals are usually performed to remove a specific form of unnatural illness called the evil eye or mal occhio. You can read more about these spells on my evil eye page at http://www.luckymojo.com/evileye.html There are also many free spells for blessing, healing, and curse-removal at http://www.luckymojo.com/altmagickfaq/blesspls.html These spells were compiled from posts made to a variety of occult usenet newsgroups and represent the ideas of people working in several different magical traditions. Most require very little in the way of ingredients, equipment, or experience. All they require is that you focus your mind and will on the results you wish to see. Read them over, and try one (or more). I have only once in my life received a magical attack strong enough to harm me, so i am not an expert on this, but many people swear by the experiences and advice in the book "Psychic Self-Defense" by Dion Fortune. When i read it, about 30 years ago, it seemed rather hysterical and paranoid to me, but others have fiunbd it of value. Instead, i recommend that you check out the book "Spiritual Cleansing" by Draja Mickaharic, published by Samuel Weiser. This book is a spectracular collection of spells dealing with both inner cleansings and with the reversal of magical attacks. There is nothing else quite like it in print at this time, and all of the spells are simple and make good sense. (I do sell this book at my online store, but you can also easily locate it at amazon or any other online or meat-space metaphysical bookstore.) As for what i did the only time i suffered from a magical attack -- well, here's the story: Around 1967 a woman who was a practicing witch was hired to curse me by woman i barely knew. This woman's husband was an astrology client of mine. For reasons of unfounded jealousy (her husband was having an affair, but not with me -- i only knew him as a client) she decided that i should be harmed, and she hired this witch to do the number on me. The witch and i -- along with about 20 or 30 other people -- were staying at a remote woods-lodge in a forest for a weekend. This was only the second time i had met this witch, but as i found out later, she actually bragged to people there that she had been hired to put the curse on me. That afternoon i stepped on a blackberry thorn. This was a classic example of "poisoning throught the feet," by the way. She had dressed the thorn, i guess. My foot swelled up, then my calf, and a red vein-line ran up toward my thigh. It was incredibly painful and sudden in onset. I was in real agony, with a rising temperature and no doctor or hospital near, so i used the age-old SATOR square against the fever, an old German hexenkraft trick, taught to me by my mother, who was born in Germany. I carved the SATOR square onto a dime and to drive the point home i showed the carved dime to the witch and asked her if she knew what it was. She said, "Yes." I said, "Okay, then you know that if i throw it in the fire this fever will break" and i threw it in the fire as she watched. She literally slunk away, and, in fact, left town within two weeks and i never saw her again. The fever went down by morning, the swelling, red line and pain in my leg were gone, and i was okay. To read more about the magical form of attack called "poisoning through the feet," see the Lucky W Amulet Archive page on foot-track Magic at http://www.luckymojo.com/foottrack.html To read more about the SATOR square and its use in German hexenkraft, see the Lucky W Amulet Archive page on the book "Pow-Wows or Long-Lost Friend" at http://www.luckymojo.com/powwows.html I hope this helps you -- and again, i do recommend that book by Draja Mickaharic. You can order it from my online bookstore at http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatbooks.html Cordially, cat yronwode Lucky W Amulet Archive --------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html Send e-mail with your street address to catalogue@luckymojo.com and receive our free 32 page catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets Copyright (c) 2002 catherine yronwode. All rights reserved.