Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva Newsgroups: alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Definition of Magic From AC Lemegeton (was Usenet Dynamics ...) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 77 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <9nqa7f$37u@bolt.sonic.net> References: <5740c929.0109101109.476aece9@posting.google.com> <9njbt3$51e@bolt.sonic.net> <9njfjk$c3d@bolt.sonic.net> <5740c929.0109111224.36bb33c9@posting.google.com> <9npide$edn@bolt.sonic.net> Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:53:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1000385605 208.201.224.36 (Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:53:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:53:25 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.pagan.magick:28590 alt.magick:262610 alt.magick.tyagi:29519 50010913 VI! om Hail Satan! from Crowley's Lemegeton: 01# "Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of 02# Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations 03# by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; 04# so that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and 05# admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are 06# profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of 07# their skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the which to the 08# vulgar shall seem to be a miracle." key phrases: Knowledge of Natural Philosophy, Agents applied to proper Patients, searchers into Nature, anticipate an effect, to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle. these are quite few variable phrases to be interpreted in an understanding of the above. I'll attempt some rudimentary analysis and hope to inspire some deeper discussion of this definition. (1) ignoring first-letter cap significance, 'knowledge of natural philosophy' implies that magic is comprehension-based, and that this comprehension is not merely superficial. i.e. the crafter of this definition excludes mere application of a formula not understood as an example magic, the which would be activity-based. as such one might say that modern hard sciences might provide this comprehension and that technology qualifies as the 'Agent' which may be applied to targets in view of comprehended change (Patients). from this interpreta- tion, Arthur C. Clarke's description of sufficiently advanced technology being "indistinguishable from magic" would seem to apply (except that Clarke's 'magic' has a different meaning here which reduces it to the manipulation of appearances). i.e. magic is being equated with or approximated to science. I would note that there is no necessary attention being paid to the actual *cause* of change in the world here. in fact the astronomical predetermination of an eclipse by a mage would be considered 'magic' and 'to the vulgar a miracle' by the definition above. from this interpretation I would say that what is being described here is science rather than magic per se, and that the Renaissance conception of magic as a precursor to science is described well by the definition above. one may find such concepts of magic described in books like "Renaissance Magic and the Return of the Golden Age", by John S. Mebane. (2) as a general descriptor, knowing how the world works and being able to apply stimulus to effect change in ways that will seem miraculous to the unknowing is compatible with most forms of magic, perhaps too generally stated. after all, what has come to be known as 'sympathetic magic' takes principles of affiliation and similarity (examine Bonewits' Laws of Magic here with profit) and applies them through a *symbolic* gesture (spell, ritual) of applied will and is therefore a type of stimulus (until it becomes prayer) which is intended to effect 'miraculous' change. (Sum) beyond this scientific and more general interpretation of magic, I can see no specific alternatives, but welcome an analysis in comparison with my own deriving such. blessed beast! nagasiva -- emailed replies may be posted ----- "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" ----- "that which liberates is ignorance" http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html hoodoo catalogue: send postal address to catalogues@luckymojo.com Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail From: nagasiva Newsgroups: alt.pagan.magick,alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi Subject: Definition of Magic From AC Lemegeton (was Usenet Dynamics ...) Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 77 Sender: yronwode@sonic.net Message-ID: <9nqa7f$37u@bolt.sonic.net> References: <5740c929.0109101109.476aece9@posting.google.com> <9njbt3$51e@bolt.sonic.net> <9njfjk$c3d@bolt.sonic.net> <5740c929.0109111224.36bb33c9@posting.google.com> <9npide$edn@bolt.sonic.net> Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.4 (NOV) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:53:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.224.36 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1000385605 208.201.224.36 (Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:53:25 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:53:25 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.pagan.magick:28590 alt.magick:262610 alt.magick.tyagi:29519 50010913 VI! om Hail Satan! from Crowley's Lemegeton: 01# "Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of 02# Natural Philosophy, advanced in its works and wonderful operations 03# by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; 04# so that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and 05# admirable effects will thereby be produced. Whence magicians are 06# profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of 07# their skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the which to the 08# vulgar shall seem to be a miracle." key phrases: Knowledge of Natural Philosophy, Agents applied to proper Patients, searchers into Nature, anticipate an effect, to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle. these are quite few variable phrases to be interpreted in an understanding of the above. I'll attempt some rudimentary analysis and hope to inspire some deeper discussion of this definition. (1) ignoring first-letter cap significance, 'knowledge of natural philosophy' implies that magic is comprehension-based, and that this comprehension is not merely superficial. i.e. the crafter of this definition excludes mere application of a formula not understood as an example magic, the which would be activity-based. as such one might say that modern hard sciences might provide this comprehension and that technology qualifies as the 'Agent' which may be applied to targets in view of comprehended change (Patients). from this interpreta- tion, Arthur C. Clarke's description of sufficiently advanced technology being "indistinguishable from magic" would seem to apply (except that Clarke's 'magic' has a different meaning here which reduces it to the manipulation of appearances). i.e. magic is being equated with or approximated to science. I would note that there is no necessary attention being paid to the actual *cause* of change in the world here. in fact the astronomical predetermination of an eclipse by a mage would be considered 'magic' and 'to the vulgar a miracle' by the definition above. from this interpretation I would say that what is being described here is science rather than magic per se, and that the Renaissance conception of magic as a precursor to science is described well by the definition above. one may find such concepts of magic described in books like "Renaissance Magic and the Return of the Golden Age", by John S. Mebane. (2) as a general descriptor, knowing how the world works and being able to apply stimulus to effect change in ways that will seem miraculous to the unknowing is compatible with most forms of magic, perhaps too generally stated. after all, what has come to be known as 'sympathetic magic' takes principles of affiliation and similarity (examine Bonewits' Laws of Magic here with profit) and applies them through a *symbolic* gesture (spell, ritual) of applied will and is therefore a type of stimulus (until it becomes prayer) which is intended to effect 'miraculous' change. (Sum) beyond this scientific and more general interpretation of magic, I can see no specific alternatives, but welcome an analysis in comparison with my own deriving such. blessed beast! nagasiva -- emailed replies may be posted ----- "sa avidya ya vimuktaye" ----- "that which liberates is ignorance" http://www.luckymojo.com/nagasiva.html hoodoo catalogue: send postal address to catalogues@luckymojo.com