Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Magical Systems, Cultural Symbols (was Pagan Kabbalah) References: <3c0e5a09.2461316@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C0E7927.349AA40@earthlink.net> <3c0eea42.39388058@trialnews.peoplepc.com> <3C0F95CE.70A36FC3@earthlink.net> From: nagasiva Reply-To: nagasiva@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 81 Message-ID: <0AiR7.12277$DD2.124500@typhoon.sonic.net> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:27:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1008055676 208.201.242.18 (Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:27:56 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:27:56 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:30205 alt.magick:279946 alt.pagan.magick:30942 50011210 VI! om >>> What value, do you consider, is there in adopting the correspondences >>> and symbolism of foreign cultures and long-since-past eras? it entirely depends upon one's position with respect to and composition in comparison to the culture in question. emphases in one might conflict with or fit snugly with insufficiencies or extravagances in the other. a culture's product might merely feed into one's delusions and imbalance one, for example, depending upon the particular mage. whereas if one is insightful, I think whatever culture's system of meanings and imagery one might select, or whatever combination one may create for oneself, will be beneficial. Gnome d Plume: >> ...it is better to anchor yourself in a system that draws from ancient >> archetypes and symbols that have been perfected by your culture what gives you the impression that they have been 'perfected'? how can you determine whether they've been perfected or abandoned, given the lack of attention to them by many except certain mystics or mages? >> through the ages than to merely swallow your own psychic saliva, with >> all the personal errors, omissions and distortions that might entail. why couldn't societies generate errors, institute omissions and distortions in the same way? it is my impression that this does in fact happen. I'd recommend instead of choosing between these two options either saving time and taking a guide to your studies (through the mechanism of some academy or student-teacher relation) and seeing how well they might steer you toward what you'll find valuable, or become an occultist and philosopher as WELL as a mage (and/or mystic), surveying what is available from all available perspectives in order to secure a proper orientation to your own studies thereafter and during the survey (this has been my choice as a solitary, meeting those with whom I've worked, magically, on the level as equals whatever roles we may take within the magical ritual drama). Rick : > ...Why is a symbol set based on cultural elements that I've never been > exposed to in my life more useful, or as you seem to imply here, > somehow safer to use, than my own discovery and recognition of what > correlates with what, based exclusively on practical and direct > experience? Poke's contention isn't new. it is fairly conventional to traditional religious, who usually follow up their advice with attestations about how their sect has the most advanced, authoritative, effective, etc., system you'll ever find. "don't rely on your fallibility" they say. "instead, seek the best technology available." I don't know if this is Poke's intent, but it comes off sounding zealous at times, however valuable the advice may be. > How do you suppose the people who originated the symbol set you use > today discovered it? the sincere rebuttal to your implication (that they originated the symbol set through experimentation with their own material) is that in many cases such revelations occurred to those who were already engaged in some kind of TRADITIONAL practice. they had a 'breakthrough', initiated some insight into the mysteries, a new relation with the divine, etc., and the New Order came into being through them (as 'Magus', would be the Rosicrucian assessment, if I am not mistaken). typically the religio-magical Hero 'perfects' that of which he was part, thus simultaneously affirming and building on that which came before; combines facets of that to which she has been exposed in order to develop something entirely new in reflection of hir experience and/or insight; or overthrows the previous order in favour of hir preferences. Poke is supporting the former, though I feel that latter two are also valid trajectory for one's mystical 'career'. with the rise of Satanism (in its milder predecessors of Christianity, Hermeticism, and Neopaganism), individualism has assumed its most deserved place as the mage becomes the Informer of divine truth. prophets don't only come from the People of the Book, they make themselves within a religion of their choice (or so goes the story). this is what some mean when they issue forth that most heretical of arrogant statements: GOD IS MAN. blessed beast! nagasiva@luckymojo.com