Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.witchcraft,alt.magick.chaos,alt.pagan.magick Subject: Magic and Fiction (was Willow, Magic...) Followup-To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.pagan.magick,alt.witchcraft,alt.magick.chaos References: <20020604202634.19790.00002918@mb-ba.aol.com> From: usedg Reply-To: spam@yronwode.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 77 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:28:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1023877735 208.201.242.18 (Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:28:55 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:28:55 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:33025 alt.magick:305315 alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic:34203 alt.witchcraft:42534 alt.magick.chaos:40422 alt.pagan.magick:33175 glass@panix.com (Robert Scott Martin): > ...can authors of magic or religion presumably A) 'authors of fiction which include or depict magic or religion as an inherent part of their art'. alternatively, B) the originators of magic and religion, who may never be seen. > ever introduce principles presumably 1) introduce an instruction on principles. alternatively, 2) actually manifest new principles into the cosmic order. > which do not participate in the techniques and concerns of fiction? A-1 can authors of fiction which include or depict magic or religion as an inherent part of their art introduce an instruction on principles of cosmic behaviour which do not participate in the techniques and concerns of fiction? R: of course. they may draw from historical sources at least. A-2 can authors of fiction which include or depict magic or religion as an inherent part of their art actually manifest new principles into the cosmic order which do not participate in the techniques and concerns of fiction? R: this is a very tall order, one I've never confirmed, though many mystics maintain the possibility without regard to its inclusion in fiction, through what are called 'Formulae', usually associated with groups of people, periods of time, and thematic resonance (as astrological or utopian). B-1 can the originators of magic and religion, who may never be seen, introduce an instruction on principles of cosmic behaviour which do not participate in the techniques and concerns of fiction? R: yes, by virtue of the horrible secrets which they conceal, and with which they are associated, fiction may simply be too inconsequent an arena for such an exposition; surely Heinlein's Church of All Worlds and, more extraordinarily, Herbert's various orders and cults, qualify as explorations in fiction of at least religious instruction, for contrast, but what will keep the imagination from casting the next fabricated cult into a new form, absorbing it into a novel circumstance, with a different leader, etc.? only the restrictions of a new Code of Decency, and we saw what that did to the quality of art, didn't we? B-2 can the originators of magic and religion, who may never be seen, actually manifest new principles into the cosmic order which do not participate in the techniques and concerns of fiction? R: their restriction from fiction must needs indicate some preventative aspect in entering or being preserved from human minds; perhaps the subtlety of the principles involved will only allow a certain elite to perceive their reality along the lines of tertans in Tibetan Buddhism and their reception of consciousness transmissions; perhaps there is some kind of cosmic principle which prevents expressions on certain topics and thus we can never know about their forbiddenness. > If so, how do these non-narrative efforts operate? R: at times dryly and with great attention to dates and numbers. leffwn53