Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.psychoactives,rec.drugs.psychedelic,alt.magick Subject: Mysticism and Psychoactives (was absinthe) References: <9CYx9.28134$0x.9332@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> From: nagasiva Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 72 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 04:51:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1037163088 208.201.242.18 (Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:51:28 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:51:28 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:35095 alt.psychoactives:22102 rec.drugs.psychedelic:78330 alt.magick:324656 50021112 VII "Arcturius" : >> It seems kind of humourous to me that a discussion about >> absinthe would even take place. tools of the sorcerous trade: psychoactives. >> Does a man need anything exterior to achieve a "state of >> Grace" within? there are many problems with this question that I'll attempt to address here in brief. 'a man' -- this seems to presume that all require the same catalysts to achieve the same results; I don't agree that this is true; different people require different stimuli to get to different states; this is reflected in Buddhist tradition as the 'upaya' of the Buddha -- the variety of manifestations of the path by which one might attain. 'need anything exterior' Amanda Walker : >Where does "interior" stop and "exterior" begin? at the person. the problem with Arcturius' question is, as Amanda has pointed out with this query, the flexibility of the boundary of the person (since it is a social fiction); the control-freak is in constant need of external objects to maintain hir delicate balances, while the ascetic has nothing riding on external configuration, even restricting personal aspects to fictional needs (successful ascetics have support-systems in the society or dissolve without trace). 'to achieve a "state of Grace" within' this is certainly not the objective of all sorcerers, instead it is the obsession of mystics who believe that such states exist and may be achieved; secondly, it is not considered here how long such a state lasts, and if entirely subjective, whether psychoactives or other short-term stimuli can be said to effect such states -- usually mystics argue that they do not, but only convincingly when looking at them from outside; if one is ONLY speaking of 'within', then it is quite possible that short-term disruption of perceptions at engagement of euphoriants does indeed produce the result about which you ask; whether it *depends* upon some outside chemical or other stimulation is entirely dependent upon the human being considered. a more profitable examination of the mystical aspects of magic would focus on what "a State of Grace" means and whether there are any demonstrable cases of someone attaining to it within recent memory (along with an assessment of those who provided this evaluation and whether they were capable of really establishing that such a condition exists, whether they could have been fooled by a clever thespian, etc.). typically the argument (a good one!) against the introduction of psychoactives as mystical catalysts consists of the difficulty of remaining sufficiently grounded in the social and practical world to sustain an outward appearance which matches that interior glory, and which does not become somehow warped and twisted due to the nature of the sorcery they've engaged (depending upon externals for stimulus -- what will happen when the supply of Grace-Pills vaporizes?). nagasiva