Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!uunet!sac.uu.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!west.cox.net!cox.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Sue Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Raphael with a Dagger References: <0S7w9.16166$VJ5.965963@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <2lsw9.19394$VJ5.1081453@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.2 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 62 Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 03:34:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.40.13.193 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net 1036640098 65.40.13.193 (Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:34:58 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:34:58 PST Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:323935 In article , Satyr wrote: > Sue writes: > > > In article , > > Satyr wrote: > > > > > Heh. It happens. Part of the problem is that despite common > > > notions to the contrary, the four archangels have nothing to do > > > with the elements, at least in their origin. They were said by > > > Agrippa, and possibly in I Enoch---too lazy to drag it out and > > > look---to be the archangels of the four cardinal directions, the > > > so-called "four winds". Since an element was attributed to each of > > > the directions as well, much confusion has arisen. > > > > Weren't there seven archangels? I know that four archangels tend to > > be attributed to the directions and that four also tend to be > > related to the throne of God, but there are also listings in which > > there are seven archangels with each one related to one of the > > 'seven' planets. > > > > http://www.hmml.org/resources/Trithemius/Spirits.html > > The "four winds", or the four archangels of the cardinal points, are > sometimes associated with the four cherubim about the throne, but not > sure I've seen this connection made explicit in some text or another. > At any rate, I would personally be very hesitant to say the cherub of > water *is* the archangel Gabriel. There may exist a relationship > between the two, but not necessarily an identity. I'm trying to locate the source where I had gotten the concept of the archangels surrounding the throne - it might have been that I saw the four archangels portrayed surrounding the throne in some art book or book regarding illuminated manuscripts, but I don't know for certain that this is the place where I got the concept. I've been going through a lot of sources of this nature for a while now though, so it might be where it came from. If I run across the source, I'll provide it. It's also quite possible that I somehow just got it in my head that there was a connection, however. > > The seven archangels of the Divine Presence, which are also the seven > candlesticks of Revelation, and the spirits of the seven Churches > which are in Asia, are usually each attributed to one of the seven > planets of the ancients. > > Of course, in the literature, there are more than a mere seven > archangels. For instance, there is one associated with each of the ten > Spheres. When we say "there are four archangels", or "there are seven > archangels", it is within a specific context, referring to a > particular set. Thanks for the input. It seems I'll be doing some reading about archangels for a bit. Shortly after I posted, I found something on the net that made mention of different numbers of archangels. So far, it appears that The Book of Enoch is where the Michael/Gabriel/Raphael/Uriel grouping came from - or have I got that wrong somehow? -- "...strange but not a stranger..."