Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!sjc70.webusenet.com!c03.atl99!news.webusenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: paulhume@comcast.net (Paul Hume) Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Open Source Magick (make no mistake) Date: 20 Nov 2003 14:52:46 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <3c7ddd63.0311091414.782dcbc1@posting.google.com> <3FBCFDBB.A55C0305@slip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.107.93.163 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1069368767 3460 127.0.0.1 (20 Nov 2003 22:52:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:52:47 +0000 (UTC) Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick:361194 > The consensus is that, indeed, there is a value to the surprise factor. > But also, that AS INITIATION RITES, the OTO rites really do need to have > that factor -- because that's all they DO have, initiation-wise. I'm not looking for a fight, but must disagree. And can't even go into any level of detail on why I disagree, even in the Minerval. Because I gave my word, you see :-) Had a housemate once who was a Master Mason, same time I was getting the initiatory work going at the local Camp. He had some expose's of OTO, as I did of Blue Lodge, and we'd sit there getting stuck in some conversations, not because the other guy hadn't read such and such a text but because we'd each promised not to discuss some material with anyone who hadn't received it regularly within our respective traditions. I am not asserting that Minerval is the 0=0. Or even that Minerval+Io is the 0=0 (though that comes closer). Different formulae, though with similarities (natch). Different egregores certainly. But both are constellations of experience recognizing a specific decision by the candidate about his role in the Universe, and both operate on subtle levels in applying that recognition to the work of the community he is joining in the ceremony. I've done Minerval scores of times, for over 100 candidates by now, First about as often, and the other Man Of Earth initiations a bunch. I've been initiated a 0=0, but did not pursue a formal GD career farther, so never worked those initiations hands on in temple (though I've worked Z2 formulae). My initiators used the red-liquid lecture, BTW (g). A sidebar on hidden dangers of knowing the ritual beforehand: Hiereus froze on a line and my actor's reflexes almost kicked in. I started to slip him the cue he was stuck on, but fortunately quashed the impulse before I did more than draw breath to whisper it to him. In both cases, I'd been an occultist for over two decades before I took the initiations, so yes, had a pretty good notion of what was coming (g). I found they worked beautifully for me; kinfolk who've taken them "blind" swear by that...and in both sets of people, if we are going to extol the work of the individual Will, I am not clear how picky we can get about whether one is better normatively. I don't know which of my Brothers or Sisters disagree as to the magical aspects of the initiations, and would love to debate it with them in detail, tyled. I know some folks are insistent on the fraternal/masonic aspect of the OTO initiations, and reject attempts to define them as more formally magical as muddying the lines between them and AA/GD style working, but that's a different debate (or so it seems to me). There are papers/notes about the Man of Earth rituals (one by Crowley, several by C.S. Jones) that are not, as far as I know, on the loose, that go into some pretty nitty-gritty detail on the inner symbolism and imagery of the Man of Earth rituals. Not Z1 by any manner of means, but there is more going on than just the outer semblance or dependence on the "grand shock" of the degree, as it's called in AF&AM. And speaking of initiations, I have gotten so caught up in this I am going to be late getting my face initiated into new ways to approach the mat in aikido. Laters, Paul