Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!nntp.flash.net!news1.ispnews.com!topeka!lilitu From: lilitu@cjnetworks.com (Goddess in Training) Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: Crowley Cross? Followup-To: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.scientology Date: 23 Dec 1997 05:05:54 GMT Organization: Pussydom Lines: 69 Message-ID: <67ngri$m1v$2@news2.ispnews.com> References: <674tdt$2ni$1@news5.ispnews.com> <67cc89$ii0@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67d0a6$pc8$1@news3.ispnews.com> <67eraq$dlf@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67fsfq$8m2$1@news3.ispnews.com> <67i2fo$dbn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67iqel$jdp$1@news2.ispnews.com> <349e7db5.25635315@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: topeka.cjnetworks.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: Supernews70 alt.pagan:249569 alt.satanism:83097 alt.religion.scientology:313894 Conner (seekon@cyberpromo.com) wrote: : >Your point here? Is it that you are saying the Jewish God and the : >Christian God are the same god? : i find this an odd comment from one so otherwise : knowledgeable. Odd? Perhaps. But perhaps I'm approaching it a different way. I also don't think it's that uncommon for Jews not to see it as such. : certainly the christians consider it so. the term 'judeo-christian', : as in judeo-christian heritage, is based in substance. and it is : the same god that's worshipped by the moslems. jesus was a jew, : and christianity grew out of the foundations of judaism: : judaic heritage, judaic bible, judaic regions. "Judeo-Christian" is a term usually used by *Christians*, and most Jews have some objection to it, at least being used in some circumstances. And the Jews who object to this are not just ultra-Orthodox. (My background is Reform, for instance, and I have troubles with the term "Judeo-Christian" in some circumstances.) : those jews who don't must be part of the same group that : would not let anyone but the most orthodox claim to be jewish, : if they had their way. As I said, that is not just the O. view. Yes, Christianity's roots were in Judaism, but it is not essentially Jewish. : Perhaps, but even if that is so, the : >approaches are very different. : certainly. my summary of judaism is that it is built around : a chosen people, and on following god's law. christianity : liberated it from these bounds, made it catholic, provided : other accesses to god's graces. of course, it kind of made : a muddle with monotheism in doing this, but it's managed : to ride that muddle for quite a long time. Ugh, the usual "Christianity *improved* and 'liberated' Judaism" and made Judaism irrelevant shpiel. Needless to say, most Jews would *not* see it that way. For me personally, Judaism is tribal--it's a tribal identity which you keep even if you change religion (which is *not* the O. view by any means). : Not to mention that the ancient Hebrews : >weren't monotheistic, but that's a whole different debate. : how ancient? 7th C. BCE. At that time, ancient Hebraic religion was not monotheistic, though many strains were monolatrous (i.e., worship of one god without necessarily not believing in others). There were also polytheistic forms as well, such as the worship of Ba'al and Astarte ("Astaroth"), as well as the probable worship of Asherah as Yahweh's consort. For a general overview of the controversies over monolatrous vs. polytheistic elements in ancient Hebraic religion, I recommend _The Early History of God_ by Mark S. Smith. Also, this URL has a decent text on the Ba'al and the Asherah in 7th C. Judah: . (It's originally an essay for the mailing list Iaidous-l (sp?), the list dedicated to the discussion of 1st C. Judaism, though this article is slightly outside of that time frame.) --'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@ | @}-,--'-- @}-'--,-- @}-,--'-- Renee Rosen "In my dome of ivory, A home of activity, I want the answers quickly, But I don't have no energy." -- Kate Bush Path: Supernews70!Supernews60!supernews.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!nntp.flash.net!news1.ispnews.com!topeka!lilitu From: lilitu@cjnetworks.com (Goddess in Training) Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: Crowley Cross? Followup-To: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.scientology Date: 24 Dec 1997 06:16:12 GMT Organization: Pussydom Lines: 208 Message-ID: <67q9bc$msn$1@news6.ispnews.com> References: <674tdt$2ni$1@news5.ispnews.com> <67cc89$ii0@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67d0a6$pc8$1@news3.ispnews.com> <67eraq$dlf@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67fsfq$8m2$1@news3.ispnews.com> <67i2fo$dbn@fcnews.fc.hp.com> <67iqel$jdp$1@news2.ispnews.com> <349e7db5.25635315@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <67ngri$m1v$2@news2.ispnews.com> <67pu50$qhf@fcnews.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: topeka.cjnetworks.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: Supernews70 alt.pagan:249672 alt.satanism:83128 alt.religion.scientology:314523 Perry Scott (no.spam@fc.hp.com) wrote: : I see this spinning wildly off-topic for alt.religion.scientology. Is : it time for e-mail? Sheesh, make an off-hand remark and it spawns a : whole 'nuther sub-thread.... As if it wasn't hard enough to follow : Crowley, the Scientology Cross, and the history of the OTO and Golden : Dawn. Perhaps, though it's not OT for alt.pagan, so perhaps I should set follow-ups? I would, except I never seem to set them right... : Goddess in Training (lilitu@cjnetworks.com) wrote: : : Conner (seekon@cyberpromo.com) wrote: : : Odd? Perhaps. But perhaps I'm approaching it a different way. I also : : don't think it's that uncommon for Jews not to see it as such. : FYI, Christians accept the Jewish Torah - Pentateuch, Prophets, History, : Poetry, etc. Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob : (a.k.a. Israel). Thus, the "hear O Israel..." comment. Apparently, : you are not hearing that anymore, which is why I made the comment. I have heard it quite often, thanks. : : "Judeo-Christian" is a term usually used by *Christians*, and most Jews : : have some objection to it, : Agreed. Conner probably didn't realize this. Cut some slack. If you'd : like me to have him flailed with the a.r.s. trout, just say the word. Feel free to do so, if you'd be so kind.:> : : As I said, that is not just the O. view. Yes, Christianity's roots were : : in Judaism, but it is not essentially Jewish. : I'll let you define "Jewish". I have a feeling that you and connor : don't agree on that yet. Custom is not the same as theology. : Christianity accepts the entire Jewish Torah. Agreed with one caveat--Christians may accept it as part of their holy scripture, but they do not follow all of Jewish law. For instance, most Christians eat pork and shrimp, wear mixed fabrics, etc. As for the definition of "Jewish" or "Judaism," there are both religious and cultura/"tribal" definitions. (The latter of which is closer to my definition, at least in referring to myself.) : Dabbling in the occult and magick is proscribed by Jewish Law. "Dabbling?" I'll be nice, and let you get away with that term, and attack the meat of your sentence.:> Not all magick/"occult" activities are prohibited, although some specifically are (such as attempts to contact the dead). I'm not Orthodox, but I have friends who are who do practice some forms of magick and mysticism (such as Kabbalah-derived traditions--keep in mind that Kabbalah has *always* included the so-called "practical Kabbalah," i.e., practical magick, such as the use of amulets to protect newborns against Lilith, which is traditional O. practice). It would take me a while, but I could come up with a list of proscribed and allowed practices, especially if I can get a hold of a good friend who is Orthodox and practices Kabbalah. (He's hard to get a hold of at the moment, since he's busy writing a book--not on Kabbalah, unfortunately, but on Cold Fusion.) For starters, however, I suggest looking into the so-called "Babylonian demon bows" (some of which can be found online at , and I also highly recommend the book _Magic and Superstition of the Jews_ by Trachtenberg, though it only covers medieval Jewish practice. Your : moniker (Goddess in Training) shows a severe break between you and : Orthodox Jewish theology. Well, that's not too suprising, considering I have never been Orthodox. (My background is fairly secular Reform Jew, though there are forms of Judaism that do interest me, such as Reconstructionist Judaism and Jewish Renewal, which combine a liberal social approach with a mystical/spiritual approach.) Thus this sensitivity to Connor's statements : regarding Judaism seems a bit overzealous for a non-believer, although : scholastically correct. I'm a cultural Jew, if not a traditional religious one. I'm not the only "secular" Jew who passionately defends Judaism.:> : I suppose this juxtapostition is what led to my off-hand remark - Hear O : Israel..., the most basic formulation of Jewish theology. I see where you are coming from, and I don't take offense at it. I just like to debate:> (I am a Jew, after all.) : : : Not to mention that the ancient Hebrews : : : >weren't monotheistic, but that's a whole different debate. : : : how ancient? : : 7th C. BCE. At that time, ancient Hebraic religion was not monotheistic, : : though many strains were monolatrous (i.e., worship of one god without : : necessarily not believing in others). There were also polytheistic forms : : as well, such as the worship of Ba'al and Astarte ("Astaroth"), as well : : as the probable worship of Asherah as Yahweh's consort. : So, are we talking about Judaism the culture, or Judaism the theology? : Orthodox or heretical? I'm talking from a strictly Orthodox : perspective. Orthodox Judaism as known today did *not* exist yet in the time I'm speaking of--Rabbinical Judaism hadn't even been developed yet. So it's kind of hard to approach this from an "Orthodox" perspective. (I'm approaching it from a historical/archeological one, though I'll admit I'm biased towards interpreting the data. OTOH, none of my claims are that out of the ordinary in the scholarly materials, though some are hotly debated.) At the time I am referring to, you really can't speak of either the culture or the theology yet. (In fact, I prefer the term "Hebraic" and not "Jewish," since this is almost pre-Judaism.) I'm referring to the time period when the Hebrews emerged out of the Canaanites. (Most evidence points to the Hebrews originally being a branch of the Canaanites. See Lemche's _The Canaanites and their land : the tradition of the Canaanites_ for more details.) : The Hebrew prophets had plenty to say about Ba'al, none of it good. Of course. The prophets were on the side of monotheism--the worship of Ba'al was an aspect of popular Hebraic religion, not "official" religion (though at the time I am speaking of, it was only starting to be codified). Ba'al, BTW, is the name of a Canaanite god (as are El, Asherah, Ashtart (aka Astarte in Greek), and even Yahweh, who was a Near Eastern deity well before the emergence of the Hebrews as a distinct people.) The : only reference to Astaroth that I have is in Deuteronomy, where it is : the name of a city - perhaps this is the god of that city. Astaroth (or also Ashtoreth) is the "demonization" of the name of the Goddess Ashtart (most well-known in English as Astarte, so I usually refer to her as that). (Astaroth is also later the name of a *male* Goetic demon, but that's a whole other story.) For more info on Astarte and other Canaanite deities, I recommend Qadash Kinahnu , which is well researched (though, again, the maintainer of that page has similar biases to me--she is concerned with scholarship, but she is also Neopagan. She does, however, give a quite good bibliography.) I could not : find Asherah in the Jewish canon (I'm using the Christian version, which : may have translation problems with these names). I don't remember if Asherah is mentioned in the Bible or not. She is the main mother Goddess of the Canaanites. She is, however, referred to in inscriptions in the phrase "Yahweh and his Asherah." I can't remember the exact inscriptions off-hand, but I can look them up--I do remember a discussion of them in Smith's _The Early History of God_ which is the best intro to ancient Hebraic religions and the controversies thereof (by an academic, not just an "amateur" such as myself). What makes these inscriptions controversial is that "Asherah" can refer to both the goddess and her cult object, which was a large pole/tree. It's unclear whether this is a reference to the goddess or just a borrowing of her cult object by the Hebrews (as they borrowed imagery associated with the war-love goddess Anath to describe Yahweh). Personally, I lean towards the former, but even the latter shows the influence of the Canaanites on Hebraic religion. : These other gods were likely to have been influenced by those nations : surrounding the the Northern and Southern Kingdoms through exile, : conquest, or osmosis. These foreign gods are proscribed in orthodox : Judaism by the 1st commandment of Mosaic Law. In the case of the Canaanite deities, they aren't "foreign"--they were criticized as such, but this was propaganda designed to minimize their influence. They were Canaanite deities, but the Hebrews were originally Canaanites (or at least there is much evidence that they were). Hebraic religion, language, and culture, is mostly Canaanite in origin. Again, I recommend the Smith book as a good overview of the field and the controversies within it, since it both covers the issues and controversies but tends to take a "moderate" viewpoint (i.e., he acknowledges the polytheistic elements/influence but tries to avoid the speculation of some authors, such as Patai in his book _The Hebrew Goddess_, which is also a great book but much more speculative). For specific "case" studies, so to speak, I recommend Susan Ackerman's _Under Every Green Tree: Popular Religion in 6th Century_, though it is both fairly heavy going in places and much more speculative overall than Smith's _Early History of God_. : The Hebrew prophets, in exhorting the Israelites back into the fold, : variously blamed all of Israel's troubles on the worship of other gods. : The prophets of the Northern Kingdom, because it seemed to always be the : first to be invaded, are rife with this exhortation (to avoid other : gods). If you need references, I can look them up. As I can for my assertions, if you would like more. You're talking about Biblical "history" which is really more accurately Jewish myth. The Bible contains history, but it's not history itself. (For instance, just because there is no archeological evidence that, say, the Exodus happened on the scale described in the Bible or that it even happened at all, that doesn't make the *myth* of it any less important or meaningful and does not diminish Passover's importance in any way.) I'm talking about historical and archeological evidence (or at least debates over such). --'--,-{@ --,--'-{@ --'--,-{@ | @}-,--'-- @}-'--,-- @}-,--'-- Renee Rosen "In my dome of ivory, A home of activity, I want the answers quickly, But I don't have no energy." -- Kate Bush