From: "Ingeborg S. Nordén" Subject: Immortality, Norns, goals of magic Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:20:25 -0600 Lines: 142 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.religion.asatru NNTP-Posting-Host: 1Cust171.tnt1.madison.wi.da.uu.net [153.34.241.171] Path: ultra.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!207.0.229.10.MISMATCH!rahul.net!a2i!newsfeed.erinet.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!207.68.152.14!upnetnews04!upnetnews05 Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:16497 alt.pagan:227807 alt.religion.asatru:30344 Hail Tyagi! I originally wrote: ># ...my faith teaches that even the gods are mortal (remember ># Ragnarok and the death of Baldr?). At most, they have a way ># of _temporarily_ staving off old age and death: Idunn keeps ># the apples of life which grow in an orchard in Asgard. She ># does not, however, distribute those apples to anyone BUT the ># gods; immortality is not a goal which humans are supposed to seek. You responded: >in your faith (asatru) can humans become gods? Well...not by gaining some item of power or by following ritual practices in life, they can't. The Germanic concept of humans-gone-divine is connected to an ancestor cult: exceptional members of a family are worshiped as guardian spirits after death. In a conversation with Catherine, I mentioned the _dísir_--female ancestral spirits--as the closest thing Asatru has to a Great Mother figure. That term is used *mostly* for the spirits of dead women, but a few "big" goddesses (Freyja and Skaði) also get called _dísir_ in the lore. The elves (ON _álfar_) are sometimes considered the male equivalent of _dísir_ : some have existed since the gods shaped this universe, but others are described as ancestral spirits. And although the lore speaks of gods and elves as two different kinds of spirit, they _are_ usually named together...related but not identical. On the other hand, Freyr is said to rule over the elves; so the line between elf/god and _dís_/goddess isn't always that clear. As to whether he was once human or not--different versions of the lore disagree. The Poetic Edda treats Freyr as a god from the beginning; the Ynglingasaga says that he was a human king of the Swedes who was deified after death. (See endnote #1) Judging by the lore, then, I'd say that Asatru does teach godhood as a *possible* goal for humans to achieve. It is not, however, common or desirable for everyone: the ones who "make it" are usually kings and great heroes, not average people. (Not everybody can--or is expected to--make a strong enough impression on the world to get worshiped when they die. Living honorably enough to earn a *decent* reputation is enough for most of us.) [cyclical destructions/resurrections in the lore; your comparison to AD&D rules on resurrection] I originally wrote: ># Again, the "elixirs" mentioned in my tradition tend to have a different ># function altogether: not immortality or healing, but knowledge and ># inspiration. You responded: >knowledge sufficient to cheat sickness, aging and/or death? No; Germanic "elixirs of knowledge" grant only poetic inspiration, or memories of history and lore. However...Asatru does teach respect for learning and persuasive speech. It also teaches that the past has a strong effect on a person's luck and reputation. So, any immortality gained by magic would be gained in a very roundabout way. >I don't think Neopaganism has this feature except in what is >called 'the Rebirth into the Summerlands' cosmology. that's >one of the reasons that I identify as Neopagan: an acceptance >of the natural cycles as perfect and not needing transcending. You bet...the whole idea that salvation or enlightenment is necessary at all, is not as universal as some people think. [permanent vs. temporary/cyclical afterlives in various faiths, Asatru included] >right, but this is a kind of 'immortality' which ADMITS of aging, >sickness, and bodily death. it is not a linear progression or some >escape hatch whereby these things can be left behind or cheated. Neopagans tend to have much "grittier" views of what life, death, and the gods are about in general...and Germanic paganism seems to be the grittiest variant I've discovered so far. [your comment: worship of a destroying mother goddess as "necessary" for making peace with/transcending death; I replied:] ># And those of us whose religion doesn't include a goddess like that... ># where does that leave us? > >Norns? Well, no evidence exists that the Norns were ever worshiped; nor do they birth and devour the cosmos in the same way that Kali would. On the other hand, they *are* said to "speak the primal law" (a literal translation of ON _ørlög_, which usually gets rendered as "fate") of men...and to carve their decisions in runes. (See endnote #2.) Even Odin himself couldn't cheat the Norns, so you have a darn good point there... it leaves you with a different perspective on the cosmos >which may depart from present-centeredness. goals like Valhalla, >acquiring the Mead of Wotan, pleasant rebirth, etc. I'm not >saying there is anything wrong with this, only that those who >don't have it that try to sell a Magic Potion or Practice to >cheat death and old age are capitalizing on an ignorance of Her >for their benefit (short-term though it may be). I don't know about "departing from present-centeredness": most of the magic referred to in the Eddas, is intended for practical results in this life. (Safe travel, defense in physical and magical combat, preventing unnecessary conflict with other people...those are a far cry from transcending age and death!) Acquiring those otherworldly results, IMO, is a "nice to have"...not a "must" according to Asatru teachings. P.S. I'm sending a copy of this message to some Asatru-related lists; please excuse any duplication. Gods Bless! Ingeborg S. Nordén (runelady@msn.com) NOTES: (1) Yes, that passage in the Ynglingasaga is my basis for calling Freyr a patron of Sweden...and if I accept that part of the story, I can certainly accept that humans can become divine (even though it's still unusual). (2) Unlike the Greek fates, the Norns are never described in the Eddas as spinning or weaving. Their shaping of _ørlög_ depends entirely on language (spoken or written).