To: soc.religion.eastern
From: tyagi nagasiva (tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com)
Subj: Dukkha, Nirvana, Kwan Yin (9306.nbltths.tn)
Date: 49930619  
Quoting: |Bill Kish
         |>tyagi
         |> |Bill Kish

|> |[Bill:]
|> |Typically we go through difficult times so that we can unlearn some
|> |old behavior patterns and perhaps learn some new ones which will allow
|> |us to choose *not* to suffer in such an extreme manner again.
|> 
|> [Me:]
|> What you are describing here is an ATTACHMENT to painlessness.  You
|> are talking about 'choosing not to suffer' as if to do this is the
|> path of liberation.
|> 
|> This is where I find the translation of 'suffering' for 'dukkha' to
|> be quite satisfactory.  We are not powerful enough to 'choose not to
|> suffer'.  This is the Great Cry of Freedom from the Ego.  No such
|> thing, sorry.  The world is suffering and we are the sadomasochistic
|> voyagers.
|       
|You would seem to have forgotten about the third of the four
|noble truths, namely the cessation of suffering.

Nope, I didn't.  I think we can choose not to ATTACH, and this leads
to the dissolution of the world as we have known it until that moment.

The third noble truth talks about nirvana, the cessation of suffering.
I think that the cessation of suffering can only come about when we
have released our self-concepts and begun living in the present.  To
me this means that we shall no longer exist, though people will see
our shadows, our traces.  Once we begin UNclinging, we disappear, for
we were always just a figment anyway.
 

|> No doubt I have been spared much pain in my life, though I don't really
|> understand how to compare it with anyone else's pain.  It isn't really
|> like comparing two ounces of flour with sixteen.
|
|You can train yourself to be empathetic.  You can feel the
|suffering of others, and even feel well nigh *only* the suffering of
|others.  Its called compassion, suffering together.  

My impression is that we are born naturally empathic, compassionate,
and are trained OUT of it.  I can reclaim this (I think I have done this
and am doing this to some extent).  No doubt I can feel that others
suffer, though I still don't know how to make 'analytical comparisons'
between my own suffering and that of others.

I don't have the experience of 'suffering units' by which I can determine
whose suffering is greater, whose is more endemic, etc.  All I can know
is that I suffer, others suffer and that I can sense this suffering.
Often when I feel the suffering of others, empathically, it feels like
their suffering is greater and more unnecessary than any I've ever
felt on my own.


|In Tibetan
|Buddhism, there are many techniques for generating bodhicitta, which
|in its relative form is what is often thought of as doing good to
|others, lovingkindness, and the like.  In its ultimate form, bodhicitta
|is "that which is empty".  This is why Tibetan Buddhism (and other
|forms of Buddhism) place such a great emphasis on cultivating
|bodhicitta, because working for the benefit of others cuts through
|coarser gradations of mind which obscure "that which is empty".  

I would agree and also mention that working for the benefit of oneself
is the basis of using such techniques.  Egotism is the basis of altruism
as far as I know, and I'd imagine (though it might be blasphemous to
suggest such a thing :>) that working for the benefit of oneself does
likewise.


|This
|tightly coupled relationship between relative and ultimate bodhicitta
|is one of the many meanings in the mantra OM MANI PADME HUM.  This is
|the mantra of Chenrezik (Avalokitesvara), who is the bodhisattva of
|compassion.

Thank you for this exposition.  I find it quite valuable.  I'd note
that Kwan Yin apparently derives from Avalokitsvara.  Kwan Yin is
the Chinese Buddhist goddess (? bodhisattva?) of compassion.  Blofeld
wrote an excellent book about Kwan Yin and Her devotees.  I think She's
swell. :>

tyagi