Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!speakeasy.org!ari From: ari@speakeasy.org (Ari Lindemann) Newsgroups: alt.meditation,alt.yoga,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan Subject: Re: Student/Teacher Sex - THE SCORE Followup-To: alt.meditation,alt.yoga,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan Date: 15 Dec 1995 19:44:59 GMT Organization: Speakeasy, Inc., Seattle WA Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4asj7r$6g2@eve.speakeasy.org> References: <4ahq2d$s0h@jobe.shell.portal.com> <4akd6v$fj0@gazette.wv.tek.com> <4an0se$he6@cloner3.netcom.com> <4aoc05$fm6@cloner3.netcom.com> <4aod9b$gsj@cloner3.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eve.speakeasy.org X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: shell.portal.com alt.meditation:17508 alt.yoga:3371 alt.zen:19598 alt.magick.tyagi:5470 alt.philosophy.taoism:2334 alt.philosophy.zen:4996 alt.consciousness:21481 talk.religion.misc:193286 alt.religion.sexuality:9667 alt.magick.tantra:249 talk.religion.buddhism:14028 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:5405 Ned Ludd (nedludd@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : In <4aoc05$fm6@cloner3.netcom.com> wlotus@ix.netcom.com (Arianna Elise : Lindemann ) writes: : > : > Let me add a disapprove vote, as if you didnt know. Let me also : > mention that this is not a matter up to "vote" but is a matter of : > ethics and legality. Most Buddhist ethical guidelines and guidelines : > covering yoga teachers view the relationship as one in which : > meaningful consent cannot consent. : > Ari : > : Thank God, Ari, we have finally gotten to the truth. You want the : student/teacher relationship to one like the law dictates a child : to an adult! : You are asking to be a child. Dammit! : No, not exactly. Some people call the Vulnerability of the Client making the client a "child" but the law does not see it this way. "I", Ari am stating the common principles upheld by the psychologists, MDs, Lawyers, Yoga Teachers (please see Iyengar Yoga Ethical Guidelines and California YTA Ethical guidelines which put 100% responsiblity on the shoulders of the one in authority). Why do you think it is that if a MD has CONSENTUAL sexual relations with a patient that it is an automatic felony offense in many states. Hey, they are both adults, right? Why is a lawyer who goes after a divorce client likely to be disbarred for having CONSENTUAL sex with the divorce client? Why is a psychologist who has CONSENTUAL sex with a client, likely to lose his license, lost a multimillion dollar lawsuit AND get sent to prison? Hey, they are both adults, arent they? The fact is that from a psychological perspective power differential relationships such as the ones I have discribed above are called "the forbidden zone". In the forbidden zone, on person has come to the relationship relinquishing power, becoming vulnerable for healing. It is standard fare that in a forbidden zone relationship, NO MEANINGFUL CONSENT CAN BE GIVEN. Period. This is the belief of not only professional people but of those who are setting up Ethical Guidelines for Buddhist Sanghas (Buddhist Peace Fellowship), and in the Yoga Communites. Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!speakeasy.org!ari From: ari@speakeasy.org (Ari Lindemann) Newsgroups: alt.meditation,alt.yoga,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.philosophy.taoism,alt.philosophy.zen,alt.consciousness,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.magick.tantra,talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan Subject: Re: Student/Teacher Sex - THE SCORE Date: 15 Dec 1995 19:51:18 GMT Organization: Speakeasy, Inc., Seattle WA Lines: 65 Message-ID: <4asjjm$77k@eve.speakeasy.org> References: <4ahq2d$s0h@jobe.shell.portal.com> <4akd6v$fj0@gazette.wv.tek.com> <4an0se$he6@cloner3.netcom.com> <4aoc05$fm6@cloner3.netcom.com> <4aod9b$gsj@cloner3.netcom.com> <4asj7r$6g2@eve.speakeasy.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: eve.speakeasy.org X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: shell.portal.com alt.meditation:17510 alt.yoga:3373 alt.zen:19601 alt.magick.tyagi:5472 alt.philosophy.taoism:2336 alt.philosophy.zen:4998 alt.consciousness:21485 talk.religion.misc:193294 alt.religion.sexuality:9669 alt.magick.tantra:251 talk.religion.buddhism:14031 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:5407 Ari Lindemann (ari@speakeasy.org) wrote: : Ned Ludd (nedludd@ix.netcom.com) wrote: : : In <4aoc05$fm6@cloner3.netcom.com> wlotus@ix.netcom.com (Arianna Elise : : Lindemann ) writes: : : > : : > Let me add a disapprove vote, as if you didnt know. Let me also : : > mention that this is not a matter up to "vote" but is a matter of : : > ethics and legality. Most Buddhist ethical guidelines and guidelines : : > covering yoga teachers view the relationship as one in which : : > meaningful consent cannot consent. : : > Ari : : > : : Thank God, Ari, we have finally gotten to the truth. You want the : : student/teacher relationship to one like the law dictates a child : : to an adult! : : You are asking to be a child. Dammit! : : : No, not exactly. Some people call the Vulnerability of the Client making : the client a "child" but the law does not see it this way. "I", Ari am : stating the common principles upheld by the psychologists, MDs, Lawyers, : Yoga Teachers (please see Iyengar Yoga Ethical Guidelines and California : YTA Ethical guidelines which put 100% responsiblity on the shoulders of : the one in authority). Why do you think it is that if a MD has CONSENTUAL : sexual relations with a patient that it is an automatic felony offense in : many states. Hey, they are both adults, right? Why is a lawyer who goes : after a divorce client likely to be disbarred for having CONSENTUAL sex : with the divorce client? Why is a psychologist who has CONSENTUAL sex : with a client, likely to lose his license, lost a multimillion dollar : lawsuit AND get sent to prison? Hey, they are both adults, arent they? : The fact is that from a psychological perspective power differential : relationships such as the ones I have discribed above are called "the : forbidden zone". In the forbidden zone, on person has come to the : relationship relinquishing power, becoming vulnerable for healing. : It is standard fare that in a forbidden zone relationship, NO MEANINGFUL : CONSENT CAN BE GIVEN. Period. This is the belief of not only professional : people but of those who are setting up Ethical Guidelines for Buddhist : Sanghas (Buddhist Peace Fellowship), and in the Yoga Communites. Sorry for the interruption. If you want any more insights on the subject I suggest that you speak with any professional, Judith Lasater (has set up two ethical guidelines for Yoga teachers), Speak with anyone at the Buddhist Peace Fellowship. Look at the ethical guidelines for lawyers, etc. A good book on the topic is "Sex in the Forbidden Zone" which goes into the reasons that the person in authority is always 100% legally, morally and ethically responsible for maintaining boundaries within a power differential relationship. Oh, I also forgot about the following. If there has been any spousal abuse in a relationship, the law often times will not honor a "mediated " settlement. The victimization of the spouse leaves a psychological scar which is recognized by law and again, no meaningful consent can be given. Thanks for your insight. In the future I would like it if you phrased your statements to me n the form of a discussion or of questins rather than an "accussation" that I want the student to be a child. I am very well versed on the issues at hand. This is just a polite request. Ari