Path: typhoon.sonic.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail From: hhannula@pp.htv.fi (Harri Hannula) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick. Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"? Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:21:00 GMT Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas Lines: 37 Message-ID: <391d623a.28496890@uutiset.saunalahti.fi> References: <390e4cab.26634835@news> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs81222.pp.htv.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 957964851 19427 212.90.81.222 (10 May 2000 13:20:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2000 13:20:51 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tantra:15807 Sönam Tsering writes: >With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say: > >>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion" > >This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, especially >the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. What has been taught since Nagarjuna >(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika, which contradicts what you >attribute to us. You should actually learn something about our system >before you start pretending to represent it. I see that you >fraudulently claim to have received instruction, but your mistake >shows you have absolutely no understanding or knowledge of basic >Tantric teaching, let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is all >Madhyamika Prasangika. I must agree with Sönam Tsering. The view that everything is an illusion is a wrong way to understand Nagarjuna's madhyamika. The prasangika madhyamika system arose especially to counter such an "over negation". According to all prasangikas, everything is LIKE an illusion (but not an illusion). If everything would be (really) an illusion, there would be no actions and their effects, and thereby most of Buddhadharma would be a sham. Buddhist Tantra is based on the prasangika view that says that all is like an illusion, thus avoiding the extreme of inherent existence of the things (dharmas) and the extreme of non-existence of the things (dharmas). This is the main point of "middle way" or madhyamika. Without understanding this view, liberation is impossible, whether one practises Sutra or Tantra. Harri Hannula Path: typhoon.sonic.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail From: hhannula@pp.htv.fi (Harri Hannula) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick. Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"? Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:51:10 GMT Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas Lines: 63 Message-ID: <39207810.34087629@uutiset.saunalahti.fi> References: <390e4cab.26634835@news> <8eqesf$99q$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs81222.pp.htv.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 957973860 4480 212.90.81.222 (10 May 2000 15:51:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 May 2000 15:51:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tantra:15813 On Thu, 04 May 2000 00:05:44 GMT, xennu@my-deja.com wrote: >The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message >board is talking out of his/her ass. I haven't read the message itself, only the post here by Gnome D. There wasn't anything wrong with Sonam Tsering's main point: >>With regards to your statement about the Tantric viewpoint, you say: >> >>"whereas they hold that everything, including the universe itself, is illusion" >> >>This proves you are totally and completely ignorant of the Tantric, >>especially the Tibetan Tantric, viewpoint. If the "whereas they hold..." was written by Gnome D as a presentation of Buddhist Vajrayana, then Gnome D made a mistake. Why? Because samsara is LIKE an illusion, not AN illusion. So maybe you overlooked that... :) ________ >The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and >only the Gelug Order. The nyingmapas who I have talked with, have all agreed with me and Chandrakirti. They just express the view of emptiness differently, but the intention remains the same. >let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna >(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika." From historical point of view, Nagarjuna did not teach prasangika, but from the prasangika practitioners point of view, he did (just like Shakyamuni was teaching madhyamika, although it was "invented" by Nagarjuna.) So, from the prasangika's point, Chandrakirti merely clarified Nagarjuna's intent, and he merely expressed the Buddha's ultimate intention.... Retrospectively, Shakyamuni Buddha was a prasangika also (provided of course that you think that prasangika system is the correct method to view emptiness.) >The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is >all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there >are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very >surprised to learn this! HYT is based on the correct view of emptiness, which from the prasangika's point of view IS the madhyamika prasangika view. _________ >And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana >views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also. Not exactly.... Nirvana is LIKE an illusion, but not (real) illusion. >True, non-dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the >illusory duality of Samsara/Nirvana. No school of thought upholds >this view stronger than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter >of fact! :) Agreed. Harri Hannula