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From: xennu@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.magick.
Subject: Re: Is this a valid "Tibetan Tantric Order"?
Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 00:05:44 GMT
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While there has been a rather interesting digression in this thread, I
thought I might take a stab at addressing the actual *original issue*
at hand.

The individual that wrote the initial message to Gnome D's message
board is talking out of his/her ass.  The only Tibetan Buddhist
Vajrayana group that might even come close (and yes- the discussion is
really limited to the Tibetan/Mahayana view of the Vajrayana, as this
was the arena wherein Poke was making his initial (correct)
observation, and in which the "responder" places him/herself by the
label "Madhyamika Prasangika") is the Jonangpa.  They don't exist
anymore- they were slaughtered, and their monasteries and texts
burned.  Why, and by whom?  Because they believed that certain things
were *real*- and by the Madhyamika Prasangika's.

The Madhyamika Prasangika view is that held by the Gelug Order- and
only the Gelug Order.  The Madhyamika Prasangika view is *adamantly*
strict on its view of Sunyata- and no one that understood its view
could ever make the claims that were given below by the "responder,"
let alone say something like: "What has been taught since Nagarjuna
(about 150 C.E) is Madhyamika Prasangika."

Yes, the Gelug's rely heavily upon Nagarjuna- or rather Je TsongKhapa's
interpretation of Nagarjuna- because the other schools *also* use
Nagarjuna's Treatise on the Middle Path to support *their* views, which
are not "Madhyamika Prasangika."

The "responder" also states: "let alone Highest Yoga Tantra which is
all Madhyamika Prasangika"- well, all I can say is that I'm sure there
are many Kagyupa's, Sakyapa's and Nyingmapa's that would be very
surprised to learn this!

Anyway, like I said- the rest of this conversation is interesting, but
not really very relevant to the actual question, which deals solely
with the Vajrayana as taight within the Mahayana.

And to respond to one of Tzimon's questions- yes, the Mahayana
views "Nirvana" to be an illusion also.  True, non-
dual "Enlightenement" being seen as transcending the illusury duality
of Samsara/Nirvana.  No school of thought upholds this view stronger
than the Madhyamika Prasangika, as a matter of fact! :)


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