Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.buddhism Subject: Re: Zen monk needs help Followup-To: alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.buddhism Date: 17 Nov 1995 16:38:20 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 105 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <48j9ts$1gm@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <488m3q$8po@pippin.globalnet.co.uk <48bu00$75a@central.server.swt.edu> Reply-To: Nguyen Tri Duc ] arkle@globalnet.co.uk (John Arkle) wrote: >My Buddhist name is 'Genryu' and I'm a Soto Zen monk/priest living in >the UK. I often teach people the basics of zazen and zen practice (I >am after all just a priest, not a master or a teacher), and often I >find myself talking about 'the dark night of the soul'. The thing is >that I've finally had to admit that I'm going through some sort of >dark night of the soul. In fact I have been for years. This is both beautiful and painful, I think. >While I still >have faith in zazen - I don't feel worthy of it. What is zazen? >I have no faith in >my teacher, or my immediate sangha What is it that you need that you are not getting from them? >and quite frankly I'm seriously >contemplating suicide. Life just seems so empty and I just feel >totally worthless. I can't seem to stop myself from being self >destructive and negative. I became suicidally depressed at one time years ago. A solution which comes out of the Christian monastic tradition occurred to me at the time. If "I" am so willing to die, than what would be the loss if "I" were to die to "self?" At that point I "surrendered" and became willing to try the suggestions of successful others, but it was still "I" who was responsible....only in a much more detached sort of way. When all else has failed, at the advice of a physician I have tried a serotonin specific reuptake inhibitor (SSRI)... Prozac is a very good jump starter for the mood. ;) > I know the answers in my head but they just >don't seem to get beyond that. Yes, most often depression has a cognitive element. Please know that if you have a typical type of dysthimia (you DID say you have been depressed for years), than you most likely have a definciency of the neurotransmitter, serotonin. You can either take an anti-depressent and/or eat lots of rice.....yes rice. Rice is packed with amino acids, the precursers for seratonin. You can also supplement your diet with amino acids from a health food store. I much prefer the "jump start" available by using Prozac. Also if you choose to seek psychotherapy, cognitive therapy in combination with pharmocotherapy has the highest rate of success. Cognitions associated with depression are quite commonly those "negative thoughts" associated with feelings of worthlessness and low self-esteem......"I am not worthy of zazen" sounds like a classic feeling based thought. > Can anyone help me with this, however >foolish it may seem? > Someone on this thread suggested another time-honored zen method: enter the pain. In the center of that pain is the strength to surrender to the buddha-nature. Joseph Campbell (I think) wrote about cultures who honored their members who seemed to enter depression as a life stage. Members of the culture would cover the sufferer with ashes and just "leave them be" for months at a time. Miya Angelou, in her autobiographical work, _I_Know_Why_The_Caged_Bird_Sings_, related that after she was raped as a child she simply stopped talking for years. When she finally decided to speak, she had SOMETHING to say. That SOMETHING has inspired many sufferers of injustice. The Mexican culture is a culture filled with suffering. suffering is honored. Nostalgia is considered an honorable, spiritual undertaking. I am not sure but that the English suffer under the "fogs of London." Perhaps more so that any culture, the Anglo cultures of the West find it socially unacceptable to be sad except for the public occasion of a funeral.......Who knows, your sadness may be your greatest gift......Westen psychologists recognize a specific kind of depression that occurs before great spiritual growth: "the abandonment depression." After realizing "I am as alone as in my dreams (cf. Jean Paul Sartre) a certain detachment from all sorts of expectations - illusions, if you will - can occur. How dark is it in the UK in the winter. Season Affective Disorder is a booger bear. Again the jumpstart of prozac may be helpful. Whatever you choose to do, good luck. Forgive me if you think me verbose. You seem to be asking for some knowledge that may help you decide your course......or let go of a course. -- Looking at the face of the Universe An old woman smiles. The stars know she has finally lost herself In the mirror. She drops the rose into her lap, And a galaxy of tears flow outward. Nebulous winds surge into her breasts Creating another moment of peaceful suffering. - nguyen tri duc Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.buddhism Subject: Re: Zen monk needs help Followup-To: alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,talk.religion.buddhism Date: 17 Nov 1995 16:39:31 -0800 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 67 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <48ja03$1kn@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <488m3q$8po@pippin.globalnet.co.uk <48d8jh$cdh@central.server.swt.edu> Reply-To: Nguyen Tri Duc NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:4856 talk.religion.buddhism:12903 [from alt.zen: Nguyen Tri Duc ] mmettes@euronet.nl (¤Mir¤) wrote: >Dear Genryu, >I cannot just let such a message pass by. I have read the answers >of the other alt.zenners and truly hope they make you feel better. >I am only a zenbeginner and cannot give you good advice, I feel. Note here that despite the cognition, "I am only a zenbeginner [thus] cannot give you good advice," she does not allow the *belief* that her gift may be of less worth than any of the rest of those she seems to admire and hold in *higher* esteem than she holds herself, to interfere with her great capacity for compassion. >I do want you to know that if you stay with alt.zen a little longer and >get acquainted with some of these guys here, you may find some >support through them. I am a Dutch woman (age 28) and have enjoyed the >corresponding in this newsgroup very much. >Pleas do not take your life! I feel it is not worth it. My father died this >April. My eldest brother is very very depressed since then. He has >professional help now. It is a long way for him, but I can see he >is getting back on his feet again, very slowly but surely. >I would love you forever if you would stay on this earth and >was able to get things going for you again. Since I have not >encountered too many hardships yet, I still have a loving heart >that can beam down some of the love towards you! >Please let us know how you are doing! >Wishing you all the love you need from my heart! >¤Mir¤ >P.S. Maybe some day I could go to the Dutch coast on the beach and you >would stand somewhere in the south of the UK and we could wave to >each other! > > I only want to add to my original post on this thread that I have experienced a transformation through depression and the support of friends. Often, there is no doctrine, or bit of advice or expertise that could have the profound effect of the love and support of others. Knowing this, I made a conscious choice to step over into a closer, more compassionate relationship with the universe: I adopted a puppy! .........this morning [there was] a dog barking. ;) - nguyen tri duc -- Looking at the face of the Universe An old woman smiles. The stars know she has finally lost herself In the mirror. She drops the rose into her lap, And a galaxy of tears flow outward. Nebulous winds surge into her breasts Creating another moment of peaceful suffering. I stand on the Gulf Coast of Texas, in the Americas. I wave to the salty sea breezes that belly across the tides, Hoping the great Gulf Stream will carry my greetings To the Great North Sea And to the channel between two friends waving to each other. If the winds or spirit refuse my request And karma overwhelms my intrusion into another sangha, I'll E-mail the damn message! ;)