Path: Supernews69!kudonet.com!not-for-mail From: I@no.self (!) Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Reconstituting Zen (was Re: JGraham: Influences on Zen??...) Date: 30 Jun 1997 02:05:41 -0700 Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services Lines: 115 Sender: tyagi@bjt.net Message-ID: <5p7st5$l6j@kudo20.kudonet.com> References: <33b7af88.14625826@news.mindspring.com> <33B5F8F6.3F6F@mindspring.com> <5p6j07$aq7@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33B6FE66.7660@mindspring.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (!) NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.227.52.9 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews69 alt.philosophy.zen:15595 alt.zen:65713 alt.magick.tyagi:13291 alt.religion.buddhism:972 talk.religion.buddhism:37792 talk.religion.misc:300935 Michael Dediu : #># I meant definition as in creating it from scratch. ... #> there are Christian sects wherein such a thing is possible. not only is #> there some more orthodox mystical instruction by such faithfuls as the #> pancultural Thomas Merton (_The Silent Life_ is exemplary here), but there #> are controversial groups such as the Anabaptists, who gave rise to the #> Quakers and others, and the Hermetic offshoots that utilize Christian #> mysticism toward developmental ends. the Rosicrucians and Thelemites #> described lattice-systems whereby unity with and comparable development #> as Jesus (the Magus, associated with the Qabalistic sphere Binah) is #> considered possible Michael Dediu : #...you are a Jesus and a Buddha in this very moment. The rest about #sects and mysticism is nonsense. you wanted to create it from scratch. you wanted to find Christianity which could be emptied via zen. some are offered here for consideration #> zen in the vehicle of Buddhism. if dhyana buddhism can mate with taoism #> to become ch'an/zen buddhism, why cannot ch'an/zen mate with christianity #> and become jen/zen christianity? let us fabricate its emptying metaphysic #Ok. what this would require is a comparative between Anabaptism, Society of Friends, Ch'an Buddhism, and Zen Buddhism. I have made such a comparison today while sitting (all drawing from one source: _Man's Religions_, by John B. Noss, Macmillan, 1963): Anabaptists Friends Ch'an Bdsm Zen Bdsm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ moved by the | the Word of God alive | buddha-nature alive | buddha-nature Word of God | not confined to | within; comes in | alive within; alive within | Scripture; comes | response to medita- | identifying with --------------| directly into the | tion that admits it | this amounts to NT Scripture | consciousness of the | | wisdom --------------| believer whom God |-------------------------------------- first grasp | chooses for the | every man or woman | all beings are clearly in own| purposes of speaking | is the Buddha and | part of the mind the mean-| through him | has potential to | buddha-nature ing of each |-----------------------| realize this fully | aspect of the | every man or woman is | and obtain insight | Christian life| potentially God's | into the heart-mind | and practice | spokesperson | | -- | | | then act upon | | | that under- | | | standing no | | | matter what | | | the cost | | | --------------|-----------------------|---------------------|---------------- | | | ceremonies and| NO sacraments; silent | (at first) NO | zazen; koan; rituals must | meditation until inner| scripture, simple | mondo; have a clear | light illumines | living and stern | NO sacraments meaning to the| someone understanding | self-discipline; | participants |-----------------------| meditation until | --------------| anti-clerical | the inner vision | anti-clerical;|-----------------------| -- | meeting in | fellow men to be | (later) zazen; | their own | treated as friends, | koan; sutras/texts; | houses | with infinite | -- | --------------| reverence for the | (all) NO sacraments | tolerance for | the divine | | differences of| possibilities in any | | opinion re: | personality | | meaning of | | | scripture | | | --------------|-----------------------|---------------------|---------------- | | | prophet | inspired | patriarch | patriarch | friend | monk | monk | | shih | roshi/zenji --------------|-----------------------|---------------------|---------------- review? #The beginning of this thread was a comment by Suzuki that Westerners #should drop the Japanese/Eastern trappings of Zen and make it their own. dhyana (India); China makes it their own and retains 'ch'anna', same to Japan with 'zenna'. making something our own, respect indicates that a portion of the name should identify sources #"Chan, soto, rinzai" are all Eastern garbage then, according to Suzuki. agreed. 'soto' and 'rinzai' indicate lineage teachers. toss. but the root -- 'dhyana/ch'anna/zenna' is valuable; so the root principles #> of course there are many stories #Never mind their stories. What is your story? #> where #> the monk is instructed to set forth into the world, having surpassed #> what may be obtained in the zendo proper. the indication is then that #> the student has transcended the need for a structured environment #> completely and can learn best from this point in direct application #> outside the standard lineage, possibly from more mature or 'wild' (buji) #> instructors #> huang po is often called 'too advanced for beginners' #Is the fact that you have a mind too advanced for you? here, try out this superpowered laser-spectrometer microscope #> of the dangers of traditions: the certainty of dogmatism #That is why in Zen we throw everything out including all teachers and #masters. If you see the Buddha, kill the Buddha. fine, fine, will you be distinguished from nihilists?