Path: Supernews69!supernews.com!HSNX.wco.com!hub.org!news.radio.cz!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mindspring!usenet From: Michael Dediu Newsgroups: alt.philosophy.zen,alt.zen,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.buddhism,talk.religion.misc Subject: Re: Reconstituting Zen (was Re: JGraham: Influences on Zen??...) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:36:08 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 114 Message-ID: <33B5ADF8.75CB@mindspring.com> References: <01bc7584$98049020$LocalHost@default> <5nq063$422@kudo20.kudonet.com> <33A0DE05.616A@mindspring.com> <33A7BD3D.1E74@digmo.org> <33AB0F1A.739D@digmo.org> <5or856$gvr@news.jhu.edu> <33B1F154.3F78@mindspring.com> <5p3n0a$hi0@kudo20.kudonet.com> Reply-To: dediu@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip103.berkeley.ca.pub-ip.psi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 29 Jun 1997 00:37:38 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: Supernews69 alt.philosophy.zen:15565 alt.zen:65554 alt.magick.tyagi:13260 alt.religion.buddhism:958 talk.religion.buddhism:37758 talk.religion.misc:300694 ! wrote: > > Old Freedom Monastery (?): > >>> I stil don't see the point of christian zen. zen makes sense to me, > >>> christian zen seems to be wearing a coat of christian metaphysics. > > Michael Dediu : > >We need to define Christian Zen because I haven't seen much yet out > >there. I am more interested in the morals than in metaphysics. And I > >find Jesus' sermon on the mount equal to the Dhammapada. > > it would depend entirely on the flavor or type of Christianity as regards > what morals pertained to 'Christian Zen'. do you have anything in mind? I would focus on the Sermon on the Mount because there are many fundamental similarities: Buddha said that only love overcomes hate, Jesus said to turn the other cheek, for example. And many of Jesus' kingdom of heaven parables point to the empty mind of Zen: The kingdom of heaven is like yeast, which a woman who put in flour until risen. The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant of pearls who found an exceptional pearl and sold all his inventory to buy it. The kingdom of heaven is like a woman carrying a jar of flour. Unbeknownst to her a leak tore, and as she walked home all the flour slowly fell on the road. She set the jar down and found it empty. The kingdom of heaven is like a man plowing a field and found a buried treasure. In his joy he covered the treasure and bought the field. > >>> It won't make the zen bones taste [any] meatier. Buddhism has, ...taken > >>> on many of the colours of the country or culture it has entered. zen > >>> would seem to be clear of that in much of america, why add the christan > >>> motif? > > >There is nothing in Zen except yourself. > > and that self constantly changes And once in a while it stands still too. Michael > > Now what are you going to fill yourself with, or empty yourself of? > > Buddhism is such a religion. Prior to that Buddha worked with Hinuism. > > close, depending on what you mean. apparently the story is that the Buddha > Siddharta Gautama (sakyamuni) lived during a time when the *samana* > movement was in its heyday. something perhaps a bit different than > the conglomerate that is now categorized as 'Hinduism' (not a religious > system in any case, being a term derived from the region of observance) The prominent metaphysics of his day was the rebirth until Nirvana. He coopted Nirvana to teach people enlightenment: if you become enlightened (get rid of all metaphysics) you will achieve Nirvana in this moment. Jesus coopted the idea of Heaven/Hell after death. The kingdom of heaven is amongst you if you live in love, hell if you live in anger. Michael > > The Chinese worked with Taoism. > > and Bon, and Confucianism, and later Buddhism! > > > Zen needs to empty something. In our country what is full is > > Christianity, thus needs to be emptied through Zen. > > this kind of talk appeals to me, especially as it is related to the > phenomenon of *zen*. very lovely > > Joe: > >> I think the best thing Zennists can do for Christians is to remain > >> faithful to their own tradition. > > >You have to throw out all traditions to do Zen. > > throw out all knowledge, all concepts, all scripture. all morals? > how far will we go? Down to complete emptiness. Then the world will explode around you. Michael > >> ...in order to have anything to offer, you have to have something > >> of your own. > > whose own? is zen not human? will we apply a 'tm'? Our own human self is all we could ever give. Michael > > ...if you think you have to have something to give or show. You have > > to take away delusions to clear your mind. > > what will be left? This very post. Michael > is it all a delusion, everything of mind? when it > is clear how will we describe it so as to talk about it? The same way we're discussing it now. Michael > is that > discussion impossible? This discussion is certainly possible. Michael