Path: ultra.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.kjsl.com!news.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.mcgill.ca!news From: "Mubul" Newsgroups: talk.religion.buddhism,alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan,alt.religion.buddhism.theravada,alt.zen Subject: Re: Nagarjuna Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:26:25 -0500 Organization: McGill University Computing Centre Lines: 60 Message-ID: <7arpfb$jnj@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> References: <7aabbh$sut@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> <36C8DC00.8CEEF4ED@aol.com> <7ac0n4$m4i@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> <36CA0A41.18E050D2@aol.com> <36CA9F88.7D984FB3@aol.com> <36CAB3D8.2DD54BAB@bu.edu> <7aeppa$6ia$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> <7afujm$3ha$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <01be5beb$f7c3d080$c979a7c3@--------> <7ajqj5$7 13@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> <7akfr0$nkc$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <7akkbl$gv1@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> <7alf5h$tsa$1@camel29.mindspring.com> <36CE9993.362F980F@aol.com> <7an2t1$lfe$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <36CF3520.B995FA39@aol.com> <7aq0hu$a47$1@camel21.mindspring.com> <36D09438.B78D5E10@aol.com> <7aqcqt$tik$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mubul.relstud.mcgill.ca X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: ultra.sonic.net talk.religion.buddhism:72180 alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan:38957 alt.religion.buddhism.theravada:372 alt.zen:125532 dharmatroll@my-dejanews.com wrote: >Anyway, take this request as a serious one, not part of the food fight. >Anyone want to take a shot at this, especially Prof. Hayes? This message had my name written on it. How can I refuse to take up this opportunity to display my ignorance and prejudice? (First let me scrape a bit of food off my nose.) >The question was: >>> I really like the idea of consolidation of the concepts of >>> impermanence rebirth to a moment-by-moment regeneration of all >>> dharmas. I first read about it in a tract by a Theravadin monk. >>> I'd be interested to hear if Dharmatroll thinks this concept >>> carries over successfully into Nagarjuna's conception of emptiness >>> from the Karika. There are various ways of reading Nagarjuna. One favourite way is to depict him as a revolutionary figure who took out his sword of wisdom and hacked away at the moribund scholasticism of the abhidharma teachers who had buried the Dharma under layers of impenetrable concepts and silly definitions. So people who see abhidharma as a "valley of dry bones" (to change the metaphor and to quote a famous Buddhist studies specialist), in which the Dharma has all but been lost, often see Nagarjuna as a figure who breathed life back into the dying corpse of Buddhism. I personally do not see abhidharma as a detour around Dharma or as a moribund enterprise. I see it as the natural spelling out of the implications of what the Buddha often said much more vaguely and impressionistically. I see abhidharma as a vital mode of practice, not one that is to everyone's liking, and not one that is necessary for liberation, but one that is very powerful and well suited to the needs of intellectuals. I also see Nagarjuna as very powerful. And I do not see him as refuting abhidharma at all. Rather, what I see him doing is offering some cautions against any kind of literalism, or any other sort of dogmatism. I see him as warning against doing abhidharma badly, not against doing abhidharma at all. So what I see going on in Nagarjuna is a brilliant spelling out of the implications of the doctrines of no self and dependent origination. There is nothing in him that would come as any great surprise to anyone familiar with the Pali canonical suttas or the Chinese agamas. Nor is there anything in him that would take the wind out of the sails of a good abhidharmist. That said, one must acknowledge that there are some people who do Nagarjuna badly, just as there were probably some individuals who did abhidharma badly. (I do not believe that any entire school missed the point of Buddhism; rather, I believe that every school has had a few individuals who failed to get the point of Buddhism, or who at least expressed themselves awkwardly.) R.P. Hayes http://www.mcgill.ca/religion