Path: typhoon.sonic.net!feed.news.sonic.net!HSNX.atgi.net!ra.nrl.navy.mil!dca6-feed2.news.algx.net!allegiance!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsfeed0.news.atl.earthlink.net!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail From: "Ned Ludd" Newsgroups: alt.zen Subject: Re: zen problematic: case 6 of the mumonkan, and lineage making Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 08:54:24 -0500 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.bd.43.55 X-Server-Date: 8 May 2002 13:54:03 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.zen:300414 rethinking wrote in message news:BS8C8.3920$Q85.239100@ozemail.com.au... > > i will not quote the case here but summarize it quickly, since > most of you will know it. for those who don't, there are various > translations out there (the most readily available is "zen flesh, > zen bones" by paul reps) > ** > the buddha in front of a large crowd of followers was ready to > give a sermon. he raises a flower, twirls it and shows it to the > gathered. kashyapa (one of the ten chief disciples of the buddha) > smiles understanding its meaning. > ** > there are three problems with this: > 1) this is not quoted anywhere else but in the mumonkan. its > authenticity (but not its spirit) has been questioned. > ... No, it is also referred to in Blue Cliff, case 15, Yun Men's Upside-Down Statement, in the verse and commentary. Hsueh Tou's verse says: The eighty-four thousand disciples of Buddha were not phoenix feathers. And Yuan's Wu's commentary on that line is: "In ancient times, at the assembly on Spirit Mountain, the four groups (monks, nuns, men and women devotees) had gathered like clouds. The World Honored One held up a flower, Kashyapa alone changed his expression with a smile. The others did not know his meaning. Taking this, Hsueh Tou says, 'The eighty-four thousand disciples of Buddha were not phoenix feathers; thirty- three men entered the tiger's den.'" And Blue Cliff was written well before the Mumonkan. (100 years from Yuan Wu's publishing of the cases, and 200 years from Hsueh Tou's speaking the cases.) Ned