From owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Wed Dec 20 07:54:51 1995 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id HAA01440 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:54:51 -0800 Received: from Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (Cmns.Think.COM [131.239.2.100]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA10383 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:54:50 -0800 Received: by Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (4.1/Ultrix2.4-C) id AA15101; Wed, 20 Dec 95 11:07:04 EST From: nagasiva Message-Id: <199512201534.HAA29647@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: How Do Other Christians Treat You? To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 07:34:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Swami GoBeyonda" at Dec 20, 95 00:30:46 am Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6134 Sender: owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Status: RO kaliyuga 49951220 |From: Swami GoBeyonda |Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 00:30:46 -0800 (PST) |How have other christians treated you, after learning of your magical |interests? I have very few ongoing relationships with conservative Christians. Sometimes I visit local churches and when I do people usually avoid me as I am dressed strangely and probably seem a threat to approach (I wear black robes most times of the year and Indian whites beneath these or exposed in summer). I have occasionally participated in what was called by the local Metropolitan Community Church (lovely people! wonderful acceptance!) 'Lenten Living Room Series', which are held every year in the living rooms of volunteers from the church. Without going into too much detail, they are group reflective interactions whereby we would consider deep personal issues (judgement, ethics, shame, death, etc.) and share them in confidence with the rest of those present. I found the experience to be very important and was quite surprised by the warmth and acceptance shown to me. Within these group interactions I didn't hide too much about myself or my interests, though I did blunt my language so as not to prove antagonistic or overly alarming to those present. I found, when I occasionally mentioned the specific contents of my studies, that while the reaction was mixed (some quite alarmed that I would be involving myself in things often considered heretical or forbidden to God-fearing Christians), that the reaction I received was very admirable. Most were accepting of my words and asked questions to the point where they felt comfortable. I received no warnings or castigation, and continued to be respected by those present. I recommend MCC in part because of the response that I and my Abyss have received from it (they are openly accepting of homosexual and eclectic lifestyles and this makes MCC somewhat controversial among more conservative Christians). Occasionally I have met with conservative Christians online (in IRC, Usenet, and some elists such as this one) and have seldom held much back from the interaction. In IRC and Usenet when I've done this I usually am told that I am damned and headed for hell or something similar, sometimes receiving hate-mail or being addressed in quite condescending and imperious tones. These days I ignore most of these responses as undeserving of my attention and a contribution to my martyrdom studies. Occasionally I will get a more conservative individual who wishes to understand my words before moving on to their chosen (and safer) life path. With these individuals I maintain a guarded respect and have sometimes learned a great deal about Christian tradition and scripture from them, even when we knew we were from different worlds. I tend to find value in scriptural citation when the individual is substantially familiar with their chosen texts and willing to explain why he or she chose or accepts that citation as meaningful to the exchange. In this way I've come to know various translations of _The Bible_, for example, where reading it has rarely been enjoyable to me (aside from some versions of Genesis, the Gospels and Revelations ;>). |What do your christian friends and acquaintances say and do, when you |talk about magick? These days I am very open about my interests in the occult and many subjects which would scare ordinary Christians, and so those friends and acquaintances I've *retained* after such exposure (some of whom are subscribed to this elist -- you know who you are) usually share my interests or are sufficiently familiar with them that they either ask questions, bypass the remarks I've made with a smile, or engage me in spirited conversation about the study. There are sometimes borderline topics which I learn about in continued interaction and when I occasionally mention these my friends and acquaintances who have difficulty with them (even my Mother and she tends to be areligious if not downright anti-religion) usually smile and nod and then change the subject. Their care and love for me typically does not allow them to consider me as beneath or somehow undeserving of their attentions despite the dangers of the things with which I have trek. |Is silence the best policy? Know, will, dare, and keep silent. I feel differently about this depending on the situation. There are many times offline that I will intentionally blunt or translate my language so that the person to whom I'm speaking will find what I'm saying valuable and be able to continue interacting with me. Often in the presence of very conservative religious I am silent about my interests unless asked very specific and direct questions, in which case I consider part of my monastic practice to answer to the best of my ability in a way which is accurate and meaningful. Occasionally this leads to tension, but typically I'm tactful enough to still remain respectably friendly despite their fear (for me or for themselves or both). Occasionally (and especially online) I take it upon myself to speak candidly and without translation about my studies and practices, and at times this has resulted in very heated and longlasting debates, sometimes escalating into hate-mongering on the part of the individual with whom I've exchanged words. Most of the time I find it valuable at that point to bring attention to the value of Christian love and acceptance and desist from further interaction, but there are occasions where I pick up the sword and vent my anger toward them without restraint. Within this elist I make it my duty to severely restrain myself (in part due to agreements I have made with the Moderators), casting myself before a potentially abusive congregation as part of what I am calling my 'martyrdom study'. This actually comes very easy to me (I concealed my interests and activities from family and friends for many years and am fairly good at it, I notice), though I intend to find ways to participate here in a way supportive of community and open-hearted acceptance. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva