From: nagasiva <tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com>
To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com (Christian Magick Elist)
Subject: Honor of God/Divine Lovers/WMystTrads-XtianMages
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:41:51 -0800 (PST)

kaliyuga
49951227

[...]

Christian magicians?  Well, I thought there were a bunch mentioned in
_The Bible_ (Moses, Noah, Jesus, anyone associated with the Melchizedek
line).


[anonymous:]
|...the more specific points of theological differences between the Western 
|Mystery Tradition(s) and Judeo-Christianity and how such differences 
|affect the practices of the Christian Magician.  

Given your definitions of Christian Esotericist/Mage, I'd say that while
there are few who are classified by *today*'s orthodoxy as 'magicians',
some might qualify for your defs as I've mentioned.  It seems to depend
on the permeability of our definitions and how far we're willing to
go in accepting different perspectives on Christian theology and
metaphysics (there are too many variations to fit under simple labels).

It seems to me that the WMT(s) are much too large to fit under a single
value or doctrinal system, and yet some of the differences which would
affect the practices of the xmage (my shorthand for your Eso Magician)
have been somewhat delineated recently in a very interesting thread in
Thelema93-L ("Christianity and Thelema").  I'll try to reconstruct some
of it from memory, and given moderator request will repost some excerpts 
within this elist):

	* Jesus and other biblical concepts/persons

	Many WMT paths seem to find value in exploring beyond the Gospels
	of one's favorite translation and perhaps imagining new and
	different variations on these.  Compare this with the many 
	variations on the Gospels (of Thomas, Mary Magdelene, etc.)
	which were and continue to be important to Gnostics or those
	within the WMT(s) that favor Gnosticism (a goodly number of
	whom are subscribed to this elist).  The character and person
 	of 'Satan' is usually a large sticking point in this area also.


	* the individual's role in the cosmos

	Typically the WMT(s) are not strictly defined and one's
	preferences in regards cosmology and psycho-spiritual
	metaphysic are left to the discernment of the individual
	rather than prescribed by the clergy or _The Bible_.  Some
	incorporate something approaching Salvation within their 
 	preferred cosmology (Xeper, return to the Source, etc.),
	and some do not.


	* sin and repentance 

	I've noticed that this is one of the major sticking points
	among WMTs - the refusal to accept the notion (especially the
	most popular) concerning sin and repentance.  Most seem to
	have tossed out the clearly moral Christian teachings in
	favor of a more flexible and self-centered 'situational ethics'
	as presented in some college-level philosophy courses or
	promoted by a WMT subgroup (Wiccan Rede, Thelemic Law, etc.).


	* the authority of _The Bible_ (whichever)

	Another feature I've noticed about WMT(s) is that there is no
	generally agreed 'authoritative text', even while many texts
	are considered valuable or worthy of study (especially classics,
	but also some modern writers).  


	* (acknowledged) creative fabrication and self-transformation

	These two activities seem to be very important to many of
	the adherents of the Western Mystery Tradition(s).  In fact,
	these particular activities are what draw me to it, and what
	I usually find lacking in conventional religion/esotericism.
	The former is often squelched via a need for historicity in
	support of the agreed dogmas or utilized underhandedly to
 	justify otherwise unsupportable theses.  The latter is 
	sometimes overlooked in the emphasis on conformity.

	
|Is the ultimate goal of esoteric study within the WMT at odds with that of 
|Christianity?  

While I'm very new to the study of what may be called the 'WMT', I have
read some interesting texts on it and studied aspects of what is classified
within this field by notable authors (the Matthewses, others), such as 
Gnosticism, Thelema, Chaos Magick, etc.  Given this caveat, I have yet to 
discover any unifying metaphysic or cosmology that would yield an 
'ultimate goal'.  

Within certain contexts of study there are specific goals set out for the 
student, such as the 'Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Guardian
Angel', the 'Great Work', 'Gnosis' and 'Mastery'.  Yet the *meanings* of
these terms appear to change from tradition to tradition (the term 'gnosis'
from Gnosticism to Chaos Magick, for example).

I gather that more often than not the goal of WMT(s) is self-development
of some kind, sometimes psycho-spiritual, usually with respect to wisdom,
knowledge or awareness.  This is somewhat at variance with what could
ostensibly be said to be the greater Christian focus: the Trinity and
one's relationship to It/Hir (esp. in seeing to the condition of one's 
soul).

[...]

tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com
nagasiva