From owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Sat Mar 16 02:20:11 1996 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id CAA06916 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 02:20:11 -0800 Received: from Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (Cmns.Think.COM [131.239.2.100]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA04087 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 02:20:10 -0800 Received: by Cmns.Think.COM.Think.COM (4.1/Ultrix2.4-C) id AA06706; Sat, 16 Mar 96 05:16:30 EST From: nagasiva Message-Id: <199603161015.CAA06767@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Rite, Christianity and Magick To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com (Christian Magick Elist) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 02:15:05 -0800 (PST) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6240 Sender: owner-fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: fiatlvx@cmns.think.com Status: RO kaliyuga 49960316 [discussing ceremonial and decorative service implements] |>...cool hats? |...cool outfits in bright colors. |...lots of pictures and nice typefaces |...neat music, especially chanting. |...eat well after the service. Aren't all these things warned against by some conservative Christian factions? I'd think that for those who cleave to the most rigorous path as the manifest will of God in their lives that sensuality (the trek with ostensibly ensnaring worldly garments, decorations, entertainments and comestibles) would be a danger. Cf. the various Christian churches which do not permit dancing (sometimes, as in the case of the Shakers, excepting religious rite), gaming, ostentatious clothing, and perhaps even grandiose banquets. Are the Shakers' religious rites (which some Christians might say was orgiastic) 'magical' in some way? From descriptions they remind me of shamanic rites of many folk cultures, though perhaps more structured and less focussed upon stationary lectures or complex visual (rather than conceptual as in dance) patterns. Glossolalia (the gift of tongues) strikes me as an obvious candidate also, as it is mentioned in _Snow Crash_, which I read recently (very interesting Christian materials --> Biblical History, ties to Babylonian culture, Jewish culture, magick, communication, cyberspace. Beauteous. I doubt that this would work well for the Amish mages though, or some Quakers. But then again I may be in the minority in considering them Christian (many don't) or involved with magick (and I think they may be shrewd mages, many without knowing it, but have not met that many Friends (sat in worship with them occasionally over the last 10 years) only read some about them, Fox, Lee, etc., ). |...use an ancient language in prayers. I think this is fascinating. It does tie in with the common Christian value for connection to the traditional sources in scriptural language as compared to the common parlance of the day. There is some controversy on this point, even within the wider magical community, since while the prophets and scribes used languages we might not fully understand without greater and greater scholarship (as common communication styles vary more and more greatly from previous days) it is often questioned whether older is in fact better when it comes to speaking with the Lord (seeing the way English, as an example, absorbs so many different old terms into its gaping maw. It depends on whether you think magick is a power like from a battery or a process such as initiating the formula of the Martyr (ceremonial or directly), etc., or a gift from the deities and other entities invoked/enjoined. I gather that some Christian mages presume the magical potency of the letters (and even numbers) themselves, especially those appearing in Scripture, perhaps in arcane configurations generally intensifies as the syntax becomes more ambiguous and aged (deciphered by qabalists no doubt, perhaps in parallel to Jewish proponents of such things such as Stan Tenen and the Meru Foundation). Some claim that the further a language is from one's ordinary communicative verbiage, the more closely it begins resembling a sub- conscious symbol-system on par with dreams or mandalas. This can lead to magical results, even if unascribed to the will of God. The most fanatic describe adepts who possess mastery of both the language of their society and of the religious texts, and who are able, if sufficiently tempered and chosen, to manifest the will of the Lord, as He did in the Gospels and as did Mosheh/Moses. These Christian mages would wield spells of mighty psychospiritual force, able to control nature and trespass its ordinary limitations (allowing such things as teleportation, telepathy, transmutation of substances, essentially the full creative powers of God, according to Hir will, we must presume). |...burn stuff (incense, sandalwood, etc.) Agni igni sacrifices, no? I can see a serious objection to this, from some Christian perspectives. Yes, I agree that the Roman Catholic rites I have witnessed were beautiful, and even the Gnostic Masses (unassociated with my Order) that I have attended, during which they also burned quite a bit of wonderful incense, were potent. Yet I can see the argument that there have been countless sacrifices made to gods over the centuries and that Jesus Christ is supposed to be the final sacrifice, the one that ends all destruction of our resources/friends/environment/whathaveyou. I like this attitude and think it fits in (albeit on different premises) with Neopagan ecological thinking (and lots of Neopagans burn incense too, don't get me wrong), and the argument might be advanced from those of strictest standards of Christian faith. I notice that this type of magick (ecological) is taken less seriously by many working mages, sometimes as 'low magick', while perhaps forgetting the beauteous work of various Quakers and other Christians. Some mystics and saints are directly related to nature like St. Francis (associated with animals) or John Muir and Peace Pilgrim. These more modern figures might constitute counter-examples to those such as the popular tales of St. Patrick or St. George) and their relationship with nature and community (love) is a direct reflection on the power of their source and inspiration. tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com nagasiva -------- (suggestion) FIELD TRIP: NEAR SAINT JOSEPH'S CITY (CA) OR PERHAPS WITHIN THE GREATER SAINT CLAIR COUNTY. I'm not sure I've ever experienced speaking in tongues in person (perhaps writing in tongues a few times, but never even seen another do it). One of my local Christian sisters (whom I'm about to call) said she'd take me to her church. If there are others who live in or near the glorious city of Saint Joseph (or will be visiting in the near future) who would like to go as a group, perhaps we can make a field trip of Saint Joseph's Downtown, one or more of the other local churches, and maybe a Pentecostal tonguing. Contact me via email if interested. Perhaps this will inspire conspiracy amongst the Body of Christ (the mystical and hidden Church). :> tn