Path: ultra.sonic.net!nntp.dnai.com!uunet!pao.uu.net!sea.uu.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gctr.net!infeed1.news.cais.net!newsie.cais.net!not-for-mail Message-ID: <37FE02DA.550E@lan2wan.com> From: Paul Hume Reply-To: paulhume@lan2wan.com Organization: William Blake Oasis X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick Subject: Re: Gnosticsm vs. Thelema References: <7tiejr$shi$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <37fd4c31.3350906@news.jacksonville.net> <37FD5D95.6FD2@sympatico.ca> <37fd5ec8.8110562@news.jacksonville.net> <37FD63A9.6D8A@sympatico.ca> <37fd678c.10355308@news.jacksonville.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 54 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:42:34 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.177.8.69 X-Trace: newsie.cais.net 939393964 205.177.8.69 (Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:46:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:46:04 EDT Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:161079 Mitch - > Crowley repudiated the rest -- > But the Gnostic Mass was patterned after the Greek or Russian > orthodox. Sorry, but I have to question you on this one as well...while Crowley wrote Liber XV while in Moscow (or was at least inspired to write it then, say The Confessions), and I can certainly see him or anyone else being inspired by a fist encounter with the Orthodox order of service (best show in town in the liturgical Christian churches these days), the structure of the Gnostic Mass is almost directly derived from the Tridentine (ie. Roman Latin) Rite. I am told it also resembles some earlier orders of Catholic worship, such as the Sarum Mass, but haven't found a copy of that text other than a massively expensive edition. But reading the Chrysosotom liturgy, I don't see much similarity to Liber XV, whereas its anatomy is real familiar to this ex-Catholic boy. > You are correct in asserting that the eternal only deals > direct, but Crowley created a Priest and Priestesshood. The > implication is that Thelema still relies on intercession... Implication is one thing, but I would point out... - the offices of the Mass (at this Oasis anyway) are filled ad hoc by anyone willing to do the work to learn them. Within the structure of the EGC as an arm of OTO, yes, you have to have be ordained to exercise some of the sacerdotal jobs, but celebrating Mass is NOT among those "restricted" functions. - I am by no means in agreement that the Priest, Priestess, and Deacon are in an intercessory role. One could do Mass that way, certainly, but it seems to me to miss the meaning of the rite. Acting as the spokesman for the space of a ritual for those present, in a unified aspiration towards the Divine in which the officers provide a focus for the Will of each participant towards gnosis, does not strike me as intercessory. I may have a more limited view of that term - again, ex-Catholic, in which the magico-religious efficacy of the Roman Mass is absolutely conditioned by the official status of the priest. Whereas the Gnostic Mass (like the agapemones of the Valentinians) is a communal celebration of a Mystery, in which anyone in the community can fill a given role at a particular meeting. Obviously, everyone who works a given tradition will have different views of how it functions...your experience as Priest is not the same as mine, and vice versa. But I cannot (equally of course) ignore my own perception of the office, as the member of the community who is doing that particular job this time around, providing the visible component of a Mystery drama from which everyone draws sustenance or comfort, or whatever they Will, according to their own gnosis. 93, Paul