Path: ultra.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.kjsl.com!news.new-york.net!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer1.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news1.bellglobal.com!news21.bellglobal.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <36EC8DFF.6413@sympatico.ca> From: richard sprigg Reply-To: kteis@sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.magick.tantra,alt.pagan Subject: Re: Thugee is Kali worship References: <7c0bs4$923$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <7c0l2k$2bkm$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <7c2ube$jcj$1@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net> <7c3cbe$2cq0$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <36E6022D.6D1A@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 100 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 04:25:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.172.206.34 X-Trace: news21.bellglobal.com 921471942 206.172.206.34 (Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:25:42 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:25:42 EDT Organization: Bell Solutions Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick.tantra:8468 alt.pagan:226777 Dharmadeva wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, richard sprigg wrote: > > > The Thugee didn't live in India. Actually I didn't write that. > > There were some jurisdictional problems, but they were easily overcome > because it could not be argued that actions were not taking place within > the relevant territory. Also it is a common principle that even if a > citizen is not in the country, they still have the protection of the law > of the country in which they have citizenship. > > > > English imposed their laws on countries which they occupied, forcefully > > > superceding the laws and mores of their subject states. Or that. > > > > Very true, yet in the case of the Thuggee, it was the obsession of one man > > Actually not true. Actually a historical fact. The British concern with Thuggee started with the description of the cult by Sherwood (Of the murderers called Phansigars) in 1816. Until that point there had been but little interest in the sect. Sherwood's account was read by Sleeman, a young officer in the Bengal Army. It rapidly became an obsession with Sleeman, who transferred to civil service in 1818. In 1821, he was put in charge of the Nerbudda valley, where he investigated for signs of the Phansigars (Thuggee). His report, that suggested that Thuggee was nationwide, caused a sensation. In 1826 Sleeman was given a wider commission, and in 1830 he was given the task of eliminating Thuggee in all central India. By 1840 the majority of the cult had been suppressed. Without Sleeman, it is doubtful if the British would have taken much interest: Thuggee were no danger to europeans. There do still exist laws which run in parallel. But > because these are often customary rather then codified, there is much > dispute as to what they are - even the local people are uncertain of the extent or ambit of the customs (so in that sense it cannot be considered law). Thuggee prospered for hundreds of years: their beliefs were an odd amalgam of hindu and moslem, and the ritual use of noose and pickaxe, together with the mass-like ceremonies that preceded murder, are most unusual, that is no reason to dismiss them as debased. To the Thugs of the time, their actions were proper and holy. You will recall that the tradition of the demon that devoured mankind as each human was created. Orthodoxy says that Kali licked the blood from the wounds on the demon to stop the beast multiplying. The thuggee myth asserts that Kali grew tired, and made two men from the sweat on her arms. She tore a strip from her garment and gave it to the men as a handkerchief, and ordered the men to kill all the demons without shedding a drop of blood. To kill was a direct commandment from Kali: there was no moral choice for a born thug. > > If you read the many good works on human rights by Indian authors you will > see that they treat cardinal human values based on dharma as the > underlying theme of what is law and what are rights. This approach is > taken by very eminent scholar and judicial figures. They come to the > conlcusion that superstitions have not cardinal basis and so custom which has inappropriate or harmful implications can never be law. Interesting, yet not totally convincing. Of most interest is the Moslem/Hindu admix that seems to have been almost unique in indian history. The identification between Kali and Fatima is fascinating. > > > I note from writings of the period that some Thuggee felt that their > > destruction was a judgement for violating their own taboos, in that in > > their later years they killed many of the "forbidden" classes of > > individuals. > > Yes, they were barbaric in what they did, caring little for the value of life. No, they cared very much for life, but the travellers that Kali sent to be destroyed were lawful meat. Care must be taken not to kill taboo individuals, however, or destruction was assured. "Washermen, potmakers, pariahs, chucklers, lepers, blind or mutilated, cow and goatherds, gold iron and brassworkers, smiths, carpenters, stonecutters, and of course, women." > > > From what I have been able to find out about Thuggee, (which given the > > extensive history of the sect is minimal) they performed a high and holy > > duty. > > Killing innocent individuals is hardly holy. Unfortunately you confuse the matter by trying justify the dogma of Thuggery some how, but yourself give examples as above of its unworthiness. They saw no "Innocent individuals" only demon seed. I will let Feringheea have the last word: "I have been high in office, and become a great favourite wherever I went...yet I was always miserable when away, and obliged to return to Thuggee. My father made me taste of the goor of Tuponee when I was a mere boy: were I to live a thousand years I should never be able to follow any other trade". History is replete with examples of those who did acts that were unpleasant to modern minds, yet essential to those of the actors.