Path: ultra.sonic.net!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.kjsl.com!news.new-york.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!news.globix.net!nntp2.cerf.net!mercury.cts.com!nntp3.crl.com!nnrp9.crl.com!not-for-mail From: "Saamaasya" Newsgroups: alt.life.universe.everything,alt.magick.tantra,alt.religion.universal-life Subject: Re: Shiva and Ganesha Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:16:06 -0800 Organization: BBZ Broadcasting Lines: 58 Message-ID: <7apt0r$ket$1@nnrp9.crl.com> References: <36CD1B73.A168E74A@pudu.microserve.com> <7ant9h$6qm$1@shell5.ba.best.com> <36cfbc84.22729516@news.pacifier.com> <7ap96k$40j$1@nnrp9.crl.com> <7aprru$d60$1@shell5.ba.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a097013.sfx1.as.crl.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.life.universe.everything:42956 alt.magick.tantra:7987 alt.religion.universal-life:7252 joshua geller wrote in message <7aprru$d60$1@shell5.ba.best.com>... >It seems to me that the events described by the famous Ganesha birth >myth refer to the invasion before the Aryans, Shiva coming in with the >Dravidians and Ganesha being the major indigenous God. There's a war, >Shiva wins the war, but either it is not a total victory or there is a >rebellion, and He has to give certain concessions to Ganesha: He's to >be the Leader of the Army Ganesha isn't thge Lord of Armies; that role is usually filled by his brother, Skanda/Murugan/Kartikkeyya. Ganesha is the lord of the Ganas (which is what Ganapati means), who are an unruly bunch of theriocephalic spirits (sometimes also called pramathas) who do occasionally fight on Shiva's side. Murugan was originally a Tamil god, and I think what you're saying applies as much to him as Ganesha. >(== the Lord of Categories, which he was >already) and always worshipped first. What's your take on all this >this? Ganesha is worshiped first because he both creates and removes obstacles, and his himself an obstacle if not placated (as per the ritual structure). Ganesha's original role is as a guardian; in effect, you have to bribe the guard to look the other way. In some places, not only is Ganesha worsjiped first, but Kubera (who is no familial relation to Ganesha, but a good friend of Shiva) must also be worshiped at the close of whatever ceremony is in question. I think Kubera and Ganesha may really form a Janus-like complex, and it may be that somewhere back in time they were worshiped together in much the way that Mitra and Varuna were considered in the Vedic tradition. Their vahanas may relate to this, too... Ganesha rides a mouse, which is eaten by snakes... while Kubera's mount is a mongoose, which in turn eats snakes. Ganesh's mouse helps him to penetrate small spaces and thus be able to gather all of the knowledge there is; Kubera's mongoose vomits gems hidden deep in the earth, which represent not only material wealth but also secrets. Ganesh becomes angry at the moon (Shiva's forehead-ornament) and breaks off one of his tusks to use as a missile. Shiva knocks out all but 8 of Kubera's teeth in a fight when they first meet (which is also somewhat reminiscent of Shiva lopping off Ganesha's original head). There seem to be numerous connections between Kubera and Ganesha, although none of them are ever explained or even made really explicit. >You may not have realized this yet, but the same event lies behind >your memories and my memories, but not behind everybody's memories, >and not even behind every man's memories. I have no idea what this means. I can barely remember what happened an hour ago. :=} ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tzimon Yliaster Tools of CHAOS http://www.xiqual.com PO Box 26362, San Francisco, CA 94126