To: tariqas@world.std.com
From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah)
Subject: Sufism and Islam (again) (9408.sufislm.h)
Date: 49940823


Alaikum dinakum waleyah din.

My kin, Noori, writes:

|yes but the question is can you really be a sufi and not be a
|muslim. 

I refer all those interested in the very long discussion of this point
to the files via ftp on ftp.lysator.liu.se /pub/religion/sufism.  Between
taher and I alone we were able to quite chase away very many people with
our radically different perspectives on this controversial question.

Alternatively, I gather (though I have yet to read it) that 'Gnosis'
magazine has a back-issue centering on Sufism and it may deal somewhat with
the question of sufism without Islam.  Perhaps Jay Kinney could confirm 
and/or argue this point.

I think that whenever we get into the question of 'really's then we begin
to appeal to levels of knowledge which transcend our ability ot ascertain
outside of direct communication from Allah Al-Alim.  My own experience 
indicates that this differs for *each and every person* (thus my greeting
line of 'Alaikum dinakum waleyah din', which, as I understand it, means:
'To you your way, to me mine').


|or if you would like it put another way is there any
|possiblity of sufism wihtout islam. 

My impression is that aside from positions for or against, the only
justification I've ever seen to deny the possibility came from the
religious texts themselves, which is a specious argument, since those
who do not participate in the religion of Islam do not necessarily
recognize them as authoritative.  Even if they do, this does not mean 
that the quoted text must be interpreted in a particular way.

Beyond this there are surely countless Muslim Sufis (and I distinguish
between the religious Muslims and the righteous muslims who may or may
not reside within the religion) who will claim to know that there cannot
be a possibility such as you ask about above.  Leaving aside for the 
moment the translation into English (and therefore interpretation), I
am not aware that any particular reference (religous or no) may be said
to constitute 'the correct and primal truth' on the matter, though I
would love to hear others provide their arguments to the contrary (with
quotes from these individuals, though I'd prefer not from Al Qur'an).


|i am of the schoolk that
|believes that there is no sufism without islam or if there is a
|sufism without islam it might be thought of as a cut rose.

Do you have reason behind this belief?  If so, what is it?  I hope you
know that some might consider it an insult to be told that what they
are doing isn't 'real sufism'.


|buatiful still with a certain redolence but without roots and
|ultimately sterile.

How do you assess this?  Have you sampled the various paths which do
or do not claim to be sufism which do not call themselves 'Muslim'?
If not, is it possible that your sources are biased?  If the roots are
in Allah, what more is the need?


La ilaha illa 'Llah, my kin, and Muhammadun rasulu'Llah.

Haramullah
tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com