Path: Supernews70!Supernews73!supernews.com!Supernews69!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (haramullah) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.sufi,alt.islam.sufism,alt.religion.gnostic,talk.religion.newage,talk.religion.misc Subject: Daraul and False Sufism Date: 28 Feb 1998 19:46:26 -0800 Organization: Access Internet Communications, Inc. Lines: 163 Sender: tyagi@accesscom.com Message-ID: <6dalmi$p1l$1@shell.accesscom.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 3199@205.226.156.10 X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) Xref: Supernews70 alt.magick.tyagi:14889 alt.sufi:2579 alt.islam.sufism:3365 alt.religion.gnostic:9304 talk.religion.newage:95493 talk.religion.misc:348915 49971230 aa2 Hail Fourth Way! assalam alaykum, my kin. Germaine: # >>Have you read "Teachers of Gurdjieff"? I haven't. # >>I'm only guessing here, but is Idries Shah saying quote the text. # >>that Gurdjieff (and later, Ouspensky) and the followers # >>of The Fourth Way were/are who does this include amongst the 'followers'? did Gurdjieff or Ouspensky or any who came after claim to be sufis? # >>not authentic Sufis, but Sufi 'imitators'? Frank LoPinto: # >This is certainly the case, especially with regards to Ouspensky # >who further smashed an already broken version of Sufism preached # >by Gurdjieff. they claimed to be a kind of sufism, then? I didn't get this from the brief exposure I've had to their materials. 'Meetings With Remarkable Men' (the film) and glimpses at a couple books (_Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson_, _In Search of the Miraculous_) didn't give me the impression that it was a type of 'sufism' which was being portrayed. perhaps I overlooked it. there certainly was credit given to sufic inspiration, but this is only respectful. Germaine : # Excellent! I've been trying to find material on Sufi imitators. why? I suggest that the criteria for the 'imitators' or the 'false sufis' will naturally vary depending on the source, and that this often will follow along religious lines. I further suggest that the most voluminous material concerning 'imitators' will be from the imitators themselves, abandoning their humility. # I had visited the Gurdjieff website, what is the URL? I couldn't find it in a brief survey of the "sufi" Websites I happen to find in the GOO: http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/Magi/gehennom.html # but being new in the study of Sufism, and being without a guide, # I find it sometimes very difficult to tell what is authentic # Sufism and what is not. is that not the second question? the first is 'what is it that associates itself with the word "sufism"?' surveying what is available we may begin a discernment. this is of course the broadest route to such a weeding. without the broad survey, however, we may fall prey to all manner of imposter who will promote the detraction of their competitors. # And thanks for the titles and pen names in your other post. # Much appreciated. there are many who say that Idries Shah is an 'imposter', one who does not teach 'true sufism', by their definition. this is probably also said of all but the most orthodox or conservative sufi Orders, even some of these discredited as 'failed' or 'sullied', having 'lost the Path'. another means, and one which you may be taking in your approach, is the selection of someone who *you* feel is instructing true sufism. say we start with Shah, and further say that this Arkon Daraul conforms to Shah's standards (by identity or through close proximity). then we may profit by reading these words, which I found while reading Daraul's text just in the last few days (the discussion here prompted me to pick it up, I am as yet unconvinced of the resemblance to writings of Idries Shah with which I am somewhat familiar -- _The Sufis_, _The Way of the Sufis_, _The Secred Lore of Magic_ and _Oriental Magic_): There are many paths within the Order which the initiate may take; all will depend upon what his natural bent is: what are his inner capabilities, which will be 'developed' by the training which he is to receive. Early in his training, which takes place primarily with a designated teacher from the circle, he is given the poem of the Sufi mystic Nadim to commit to memory. It purports to describe the False Sufi: Who fears man, accuses, slanders, claims exclusive right; Who preaches travelling, not to disciples properly enrolled; Who purports to explain the Path through assemblies other than those of initiates; Who denounces a father, son, uncle or other relative; Who panders to the desires of the raw (immature) in giving them promise of things that they may want: not the things which they must have. ------------------------------------------------- _A History of Secret Societies_, by Arkon Daraul, Citadel Press, 1997; p. 69. _________________________________________________ given Shah's writings otherwise that sufism is the heart of all true religions, etc., I'd think that generalizations about what groups are or are not 'false sufis' would be rather impossible to make -- some members of any organization might qualify, many probably would not, even in nominal 'sufi' organizations and Orders. if we are looking for a 'true wrapper of sufism', then our best bet may be in the traditional Orders and the poets and artists associated with the sufic tradition (e.g. Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Al Ghazali, etc.). if we are looking for the 'true heart of sufism', then our best bet may be to begin an assessment of this heart, what it includes, and what characteristics may most likely be associated with it regardless of any wrapper. searching for the Prophet, it is seldom best to begin by determining what kind of person is NOT the Prophet, for this merely distracts us, getting us looking for darkness by searching for light. instead identify what the Prophet is, what manner of being is this darkness, then select among what may be found in the environment which roughly conforms. if nothing comes close we relocate our search elsewhere, keeping ours eyes and ears open and our mind keen. more importantly, long-term, is the attention to the self, to our own maturity and how this may be effected. even in 'imitation sufi' materials there are decent explanations of how to go about coming to know oneself and beginning to work toward the descent into the Real. combining this self- investigation and transformation with our examination of the possible 'real sufis', we prepare for the day that the Real Guide arrives and we begin work in earnest. may peace be with you, haramullah -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); 408/2-666-SLUG http://www.abyss.com/tokus FUCK http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi