From jake@kiblah.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 27 10:31:39 1996 Return-Path: Received: from kudonet.com by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA21727; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:31:38 -0800 Received: from vera.nni.com by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09394; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:39:54 -0800 Received: from relay-7.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.9]) by vera.nni.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA300 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:36:35 -0500 Received: from kiblah.demon.co.uk ([194.222.62.222]) by relay-5.mail.demon.net id aa503514; 27 Dec 96 18:24 GMT Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:19:48 +0000 To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From: jake stratton-kent Subject: Re: qabbalah inquiry MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.01 content-length: 2726 Status: RO ------- Forwarded message follows ------- In article , nagasiva writes >49961223 AA1 Hail Satan! Daos 'Kay? > > >ajh wrote: >>>can anyone here concisely, in a nutshell, answer the following question: > >>no. > >agreed. but there *are* REF files. > > http://www.hollyfeld.org/amgkfaq > > look for the qblref ("Kabbalah FAQ") > > >>>what is the Qabbalah? > >>one anwer might be 'an internally coherent system of symbols assumed >>to correspond to the universe'. there are others. > >lovely. how about 'a body of scriptures important to a culture of >people who map numerological significance to their language and to >everyday objects in support of their emanationist cosmology'? > >this applies not only to the Kabblah (Jewish) but also Qabalah (Hermetic) >or any other (my own Jehovah's Witness Ckabbawlla, for example :>). > Yo tyagi dude I accept something similar to your definition, although not all such schools are emanationists exactly - see David Allen Hulse's "The Key of it All" for a major survey of a great many systems definable as qaballistic, many unconnected with Hebrew. There are many assumptions of 1800's style qabalism which should long ago have been shot down in flames, and Hulse goes a long way to achieveing just that. Your definition does not have much currency in the Hermetic movement as exemplified by the Golden Dawn and its derivatives. Such bodies make virtually no use of this central element of qaballism, seeing it instead as a system of correspondences (your "everyday objects" perhaps). The problem was of course that the Bible, in Hebrew or otherwise was not that important to the GD membership, so qabalistic exegesis was not an attractive option. While AL supplied the Holy text for a qaballistic revival the OTO etc. receive their qabalah from the GD and thus have very little idea what to do with a Holy Text. Consequently they have degraded it to a mere symbol for fear that otherwise they will be stigmatised as fundamentalists. Qaballistic principles are not fundamentalist principles, a qaballistic relationship with the Book is on another level entirely. I used to let Jehovahs and Mormons in off the doorstep for tea and theological chat and have yet to meet one with any knowledge of qabalah or anything like it, they are much the same as the occult scene in that respect! :-). Stupid Christians (there are other kinds, usually little old ladies with common sense and kind hearts, who'd make equally good witches!) have used numerology in the modern period, but not on any truly qaballistic lines. -- jake stratton-kent -- jake stratton-kent From jake@kiblah.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 27 10:37:11 1996 Return-Path: Received: from kudonet.com by kudo20.kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22318; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:37:11 -0800 Received: from vera.nni.com by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09634; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 10:45:27 -0800 Received: from relay-11.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.137]) by vera.nni.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA238 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 1996 13:42:08 -0500 Received: from kiblah.demon.co.uk ([194.222.62.222]) by relay-10.mail.demon.net id aa1024460; 27 Dec 96 18:24 GMT Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 18:23:32 +0000 To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From: jake stratton-kent Subject: Re: qabbalah inquiry MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 3.01 content-length: 1662 Status: RO ------- Forwarded message follows ------- In article , Will Parke writes >ajh wrote: >>can anyone here concisely, in a nutshell, answer the following >>question: >> >>what is the Qabbalah? > >can anyone here, concisely, in a nutshell, answer the following >question : > >what is an OTOer, crowley@thelema.net, doing asking a question like that? > > > -That Damn Kid > & His Lazy Friday Afternoons > The fact is that most GD/OTO types think they know all about qabalism, whereas what most of them know is only the Golden Dawn system of correspondences - bearing very little relation to qabalah proper. What "we all know" about qabalah is similar to what "we all knew" about the flatness of the earth, and other widely held but dopey assumptions like that. The fact that more people accept the dumbass interpretation is no argument against more informed interpretations. As a later poster notes however this message emanates from QBLH, not the OTO. The QBLH does promote a more informed/less dogmatic view of qabalah. All the same the occult revival has obscured the qabalah rather than clarified it and members of any organisation can be forgiven for finding it all rather confusing. The occult revival has been around a long time, and the groups you mention exemplify it. The qabalistic revival is only beginning, and the rank and file of most orders are not remotely ready for it, I find that amusing when it isn't frustrating the hell out of me! -- jake stratton-kent -- jake stratton-kent