From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick,alt.occult.kabbalah,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage,alt.consciousness.mysticism Subject: JMarshall: QBL Terminology Date: 13 Sep 1997 12:54:59 -0700 Organization: Bay Junction Technology, Inc. Lines: 69 Sender: tyagi@news.bjt.net Message-ID: <5ver2j$cqt@bay1.bjt.net> Reply-To: "Jeff Marshall" X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) NNTP-Posting-Host: bay1.bjt.net Path: bridge!not-for-mail Xref: bridge alt.magick.tyagi:14914 alt.magick:118395 talk.religion.misc:323864 talk.religion.newage:80034 alt.consciousness.mysticism:13114 [from kabbalah-l@hollyfeld.org: "Jeff Marshall" ] nocTifer : >"Jeff Marshall" : ># I think we must also be careful not confuse Mysticism with magick as well. ># One is active and one is passive. I personally think we need to access ># both. > >don't tell that to the dancing/whirling sufis or to martial artists and >ceremonial magicians. they can be pretty 'active'. then again, you may >be talking about something more subtle: the target of the change (oneself >--> mysticism; or 'actively' causing a change in the world --> magick). Yep ># The second is a Christianized for of the first and gives us such things ># as YHShVH. The latter is of the Western Esoteric Tradition and is wide ># open to assimilation of many different systems. Using it, we can relate ># Egyptian to Greek to Hebrew though and symbology. > >I have never been persuaded that these two (Cabala/Qabala(h)) are at all >different. could you perhaps point to some of the major Christian(ized?) >authors in the field of 'Cabala' and compare and contrast this with those >of 'Qabala(h)'? there is no absolute difference between Christian >mysticism and Hermetica (Western Esoteric) from what I can see. and as >I understand it 'Cabala' is just an illiterate fusion of 'cabal' and >'Qabalah'. Well, I don't have the time to go through a run down of all the literature in this field. I suspect that you most likely have a far better command over than I do anyone. What I mean by the Christian Cabalists are those that use the study to justify the Christian religion (as opposed to Christ, which I think is a different subject). These are people who work completely within the framework of Christianity and would most likely not be working with say Egyptian or Sumerian archetypes. For them Christianity is not a my those like the Egyptian or Sumerian, but the only true revealed religion and Cabala "proves" it. Some of these are discussed in Frances Yates' _Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition_. An example is the construct of YHShVH as the name of the Christ. Supposedly, this is the movement of Shin-Spirit-into the Tetragrammaton. Thus it is the animation of the four elements. The actual name, I think is more like YHVShAa (last letter Ayin). Now the construct of YHShVH has bled over into the Hermetic tradition as well. There is certainly overlap between the Christian and the Hermetic traditions as I think the Christian came first, then the Hermetic. Perhaps the reason is these "pioneers" felt like they had to be Christianized or be burned. Certainly Bruno felt the flames... ># It is also useful as a means in initiation as well, IMO. > >I don't understand this at all. please explain. I again rather suspect you know at least as much about this as I do, most likely more. Simplistically, it is the reintegration of the Sephiroth into ourselves and our spiritual awakening as we travel up the Tree to fan the Divine Spark into a Bonfire. I am certainly not the first to speak of initiation and Qabalah, the Golden Dawn used an initiatic basis a hundred years ago. If you are curious as to any thoughts I might have, feel free to visit my website (http://www.infocomm.net/~jeff/magan/magan.html). In the Muse section you will find an article entitled "Overview of a Gnostic Temple" that sketches out some of these thoughts. EOF -- (emailed replies may be posted);join the AMT syncretism!!;call: 408/2-666-SLUG! see http://www.abyss.com/tokus; "Clement of Rome taught that God rules the world with a right and a left hand, the right being Christ, the left Satan." - CGJung