Path: ultra.sonic.net!news From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (hara) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.occult Subject: QBL and its Character (was Re: Gematria....) Date: 22 Dec 1998 11:08:28 -0800 Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 78 Message-ID: <75oqnc$mm0@bolt.sonic.net> References: <19981215015138.15707.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> <754teb$81e$1@ash.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bolt.sonic.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:129902 alt.magick.tyagi:14991 alt.pagan.magick:13037 49981222 IIIom Shawn Ogden reviews hara's points on the variability of QBL: #> I think these are important points to make. We are in a sense, #> dealing with a kind of ignorance that doesn't allow for the #> intermixing of systems. I think this is the best course of action, #> because you don't limit yourself to just one type or derivation. american qabalah : # It is not my place to disallow anything. Do whatever you want, mix and # match whatever you feel like, and best of luck to you. ok, and when people have done that, they've mixed and matched NAMES too, and applied some of those they came across which they were generalizing to what they were doing. at that point the co-opted names no longer applied to the original phenomenon which had apparently inspired them. you say 'do what you want', but then you go on to say that 'those have *have* done what they wanted were wrong to use terms to describe what they did that were previously applied to other contexts. this is part and parcel of syncretic collage, and what you appear to be arguing for below is a cementation of language, a DISALLOWING of the usage of esoteric language for personal purposes in the construction of novel or reflected systems. # My point is that Qabalah is Jewish. but you are making your point very badly, especially by ignoring the fact that I have selected *spelling* to differentiate the various QBLs and you have either overlooked or merely never spoken to it. instead you merely repeat your assert that there is no QBL but Jewish QBL and this has the name "Qabalah". you do not describe why it is that Scholem (whom *both* of us have cited as a reliable authority on the history of kabbalah) wrote a book called _Kabbalah_ rather than _Qabalah_ as you have it. if you want to be taken seriously then you ought to begin by expanding on your assertion rather than perpetuating a shouting match. the relevant issues involved here are what the possible meanings for "qabalah" may be, whether spelling (in English, I realize that transliteration generates variation here) can be a useful taxonomical delineator, what qualities a system of thought and symbol and practice (?) must have to be considered qabalah, and whether there is anything that compares in any way to what you are referring to when you say "Qabalah" which is Jewish. # If you really want to understand Qabalah, study it as a # facet of Judaism as a whole. that's one take on it, yes, and you have asserted it several times, but you haven't provided explanations for it, support for it, relevant sources who agree with your perspective, explanations for why Hermetics aren't sufficient sources (I am not here asserting that they are, but want to know where you think they are failing to generage a QBL golem). # That's not ignorance, it's context. Ignorance is when one # ignores something, like, say, context. it is your assert that it is context. the challenge to you is explain why it is a *necessary* context. granted that most if not all that is today associated with QBL may be found in Judaism, explain why there can't be universals or transcontextualized QBLs created by Christians, Buddhists, or Satanists. if you agree that there can, what do *you* think that these should be called? if we have a variety of spellings for QBLH, why not utilize them to differentiate the most common derivations of this universal? hara -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); cc me replies; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html