Path: ultra.sonic.net!news From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (hara) Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan.magick,alt.occult Subject: Re: English Qaballa and Racist Agendae (was re: Gematria and ...) Date: 4 Jan 1999 11:50:48 -0800 Organization: Sonoma Interconnect,Santa Rosa,CA(us),http://www.sonic.net Lines: 129 Message-ID: <76r62o$u1r@bolt.sonic.net> References: <328.1.51@intuition.org> <368C0A71.144C@luckymojo.com> <368C57A5.658A@sympatico.ca> <76k3df$3fv@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <368E95D1.1700@luckymojo.com> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bolt.sonic.net X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 (NOV) Xref: ultra.sonic.net alt.magick:130723 alt.magick.tyagi:15105 alt.pagan.magick:13197 49990104 IIIom shalom alechem, my kin. Laszlo: #> ...Magicians draw from many diverse sources...much as computer #> designers draw and build upon the work of previous computer #> designers. but do magicians cite those sources, identify them properly, and pay sufficient tribute to these when they relay their creations, inventions, and reiterations to others? this is one of the more important issues, as well as why they might NOT do this (such as for purposes of anti-Judaism in the displacement of the religious context in kabbalah to create their own Christian qabalah and/or oppress Jewish culture/people). the motivation may provide hints as to the fundamental nature of the rivalrous qabalistic text, its value, etc. this is the point that that catherine and Tim have been making all along (which I have acknowledged while also attempting to discover if a respectful and universalist QBL may be possible and what it should be called instead of what it has been heretofore). catherine yronwode : # I think you missed the opening of this thread. It began with a # discussion between [hara] and tim the occultist about [gematria]. # Tim opined that to understand kaballah, one must study Judaism # and Jewish culture. [hara] then asked why, since he had read # that the kaballah was not actually Jewish. I would rephrase this assessment (metadiscussion but possibly relevant to getting to the core issues) as 'hara then asked if Tim was sure, since there were various sources indicating that there might be other "kinds" of qaballah, such as Christian or Hermetic'. I cited Scholem, whom we'd all agreed was a reliable authority on the subject, as one who used the phrase 'Christian Kabbalah'. I then logically asked whether, if there is such a thing as 'Christian Kabbalah', kaballah (by any spelling) could be considered _separately_ from Judaism as a thing which transcends religious categories, or if I'd missed some crucial element in Scholem's writing. # [hara] then asserted that the kabbalah scholar Gershom # Scholem supported his view. no, I suggested that Scholem seemed to offer contradictory expressions to what appeared to be overgeneralizations on Tim's part. Tim seemed to clarify his statement in a way which was slightly less extreme, and we left it at that. the ad hominem I omit as unworthy of response or re- characterization. # Tim then quited Scholem back at him, demonstrating that # Scholem did in fact believe the kaballah to be Jewish. Tim's quote indicated that Scholem's regard for occultists is very poor, explaining that Scholem considers them to have an "infinitesimal" understanding of kabbalah (by which he means Jewish kabbalah, as he describes in the first paragraph in his book _Kabbalah_). that is, Tim was trying to show that authors like Levi and Crowley and the like were regarded as poor sources on the subject of "Qabalah" (Tim's term) by the source which I'd suggested was very knowledgeable about Jewish kabbalah. he then claimed that I was self- contradictory, something which I denied on the basis that I never claimed that Levi or Crowley had any sort of knowledge, though they had written about something they called "qabalah". # [hara] asked for "proof" that the kaballah was Jewish. I asked what sources indicated that what should be called qabalah (by any name) was entirely Jewish. When I was pointed toward Scholem I produced text indicating that there was such a thing as Christian Kabbalah. the only way that I could find to reconcile this was Tim/Bill's suggestion (I think I'm sourcing this properly) that Christianity was *also* Jewish ("on the mother's side") and, ipso facto, Christian Kabbalah was also Jewish. I never responded to this because it seemed too extreme, though entirely logical. # ...I also postulated, in the form of a series of questions, # whether Crowley did not inadvertently contribute to the # ignorance of his students. unfortunately my response to this (very long, containing quotes from Crowley's materials which indicates sourcing) has been delayed or lost. I will try to obtain a copy from the Hollyfeld Archive and repost. # In his own library [hara] conceded that [Scholem]'s book opened # with a statement that the kaballah is Jewish. not entirely true. I said it seemed that he was defining (and very well and clearly) what he meant by the term 'kabbalah'. his usage of 'Christian' prior to it is still very confusing to me. other Jewish authors use similar terms like "Christian Kabbalists" from page 22 of _The Kabbala: An Introduction to Jewish Mysticism and Its Secret Doctrine_, by Dr. Erich Bischoff, Weiser, 1993. this is a text you had in your library which you showed me this morning (wonderful, more clear and explanatory than any other source I've read on Jewish kabbalah and certainly more clear than anything nonJewish I've read that may use the term 'qabalah to describe itself). # In usenet, he asks me to "prove" this. actually I have asked for an explanation for the usage I have provided in quote, and I have asked for support for what seemed to me, in my admitted ignorance, overstatement. peace be with you, hara -- tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (emailed replies may be posted); cc me replies; http://www.abyss.com/tokus; http://www.luckymojo.com/mojocatSPELLS.html