Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.tarot,alt.magick,alt.divination Subject: Hermetic Fantasies and Crypto Jews (was Tarot Card Games ...) References: <3EBF0AD4.BA70B8A4@luckymojo.com> <3EC00035.2F664885@pacbell.net> <3EC050F1.BDF106D0@luckymojo.com> From: nagasiva Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 114 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 08:59:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1053766776 208.201.242.18 (Sat, 24 May 2003 01:59:36 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 01:59:36 PDT Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:39950 alt.tarot:116812 alt.magick:346483 alt.divination:21578 50030523 VII sri catyananda about the Crypto-Jew playing card text: # The article was not written with specific respect to Tarot (tarocchi, # tarock) sets, but the TIMING is interesting. The Inquisition -- and # thus the Jewish use of playing cards to disguise Jewish prayer -- # occurred BEFORE the Egyptomania craze. granted that the Inquisition story is accurate. # The expulsions and forced # conversions of Jews in Spanish-held lands dates to 1492, when tarocchi # was certainly in vogue. Also, note that the article in question # documents the practice of card-playing on both the Sabbath and the # Jewish High Holy Days as STILL occurring among Ladino Spanish Crypto # Jews at the present time, both in Madrid, Spain, and in New Mexico, # USA. I'd rather say that it reports it as occurring at the present time. unless we have some reason to think its practice extends backwards in time to the Inquisition in an unbroken manner, why should we? that continuity seems important in a consideration of whether it is "STILL occurring" rather than, for example "also occurring now", or "has begun again". # Now consider your choices: # A) From 1492 down to the present day Ladino Crypto Jews have used # tarocchi (tarock) cards to hide their prayer and their Torah teachings # from Christians -- but the Hermetics, Freemasons, and/or Egyptophiles # did not [...] know this at all, and just fantasized or MADE UP the idea # that Jews used playing cards to disguise hidden spiritual lessons -- a # complete coincidence! ok, let's call this the Cosmic Esoteric Coincidence Theory of Tarot-Kabbalah Connection it seems somewhat unlikely as stated. ignorance on the part of Hermetics/Freemasons/Egyptophile for what was being used to avoid Christian condemnation seems odd somehow. maybe there is a huge overlap of membership such that Jews would be sure to also exclude the rest? :> # or # B) Some Hermetics, Freemasons, and/or Egyptophiles either # knew Crypto Jews or WERE Crypto Jews, and thus they told the # truth when they said that the Jews used tarocchi cards as # guides to spiritual mysteries. this would of course be the Crypto Jew Influence Theory of Tarot-Kabbalah Connection the main problem with this is that it contends the use of tarocchi cards "as guides to spiritual mysteries" when it seems the evidence only points to card playing as a cover for religious identity at least, observance at most. there isn't anything in the material I've seen so far indicating that anyone is saying the cards were being manipulated in design, for example. does being a guide to a spiritual mystery include becoming an excuse to oppressive authorities who are checking up on whether religious activities are taking place in the home? or does what was *on* the cards make any difference, granted some unbroken usage? # Choice (B) seems more logical to me than choice (A), are those the only ones available from which to choose? how about (C) Lots of people have played cards. Sometimes cards have been used as an excuse to do something else which was forbidden. By sheer coincidence, Hermetics like Eliphas Levi found the resonance between the 22 trumps of cards (esp. reflecting on the combined writings of Court de Gebelin and comte de Mellet in Monde primitif!) and 22 letters of Hebrew alphabet in card decks in their (same?) region to be too attractive to pass up as a device for communicating their Hermetic philosophy. They took advantage of a well- prepared sociological predisposition (that the Tarot had been dubbed 'The Book of Thoth') and ran with it. let's call this the Egypto-Resonance Coincidence Theory of Tarot-Kabbalah Connection it seems to be what Dummett/Decker and jk are advancing. I hope to be corrected if in error. :> sri catyananda continues, describing the merits of (B): # simply because it merely requires direct knowledge of # something that would at that time have been known to # hundreds of thousands of Ladino Crypto Jews, Levi had knowledge of Court de Gebelin and de Mellet. did de Gebelin and de Mellet know Crypto Jews or were they themselves such? any reason to think so? # while choice (A [you had B here]) requires a very # far-out yet highly accurate fantasy to have been # coincidentally true. I'd agree that (B) seems more realistically possible than (A) above. and what do you think of (C)? is the coincidence sufficiently conservative that it starts to sound a more plausible/possible coincidence than (A), a more sociologically-supportable contention than (B)? thanks! nagasiva