Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!frankensun.altair.com!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!wizard.pn.com!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!amd!amdahl.com!toad.com!tim From: tim@toad.com (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.satanism Subject: Re: CHLow: Dark/Light Neopaganism (Was Re: Dark roygbiv Light) Message-ID: <81208@toad.com> Date: 1 Jan 96 17:41:04 GMT References: <4bc9bs$grc@jobe.shell.portal.com <4bf5e4$a5c@uucp.intac.com> <4bvh1e$rsn@jobe.shell.portal.com> <4c2hnb$9o2@falcon.sat.net> <4c8ftp$97o@falcon.sat.net> Reply-To: tim@toad.com.UUCP (Tim Maroney) Organization: As Little As Possible Lines: 43 Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:5986 alt.pagan:139198 alt.satanism:31353 >>: As to Pagans having anything to do with the christian concept of "God", >>: "Jesus", or saints, WE DON'T. >>Except, of course, for the fact that we borrow from it heavily. mandrake@sat.net (Mandrake .....the Bard) writes: > No. A few people who call themselves "Neopagans" might do so, but I do not, >nor do any of the thousands of Pagans I know. How about borrowings from ritual practices of Judaism and Christianity? Called the Quarters lately (it's from a Jewish prayer, you know) or blessed any cakes and ale (that's from Christian Eucharistic practices)? >>: The Pagan gods and goddesses have nothing to do with the >>: Judeo-christian constructs, and though some may discuss comparing them, >>: they are best left separate. >>Kindly support this statement. >The idea of Pagan gods and goddesses is of beings, SEPARATE beings, >who may wield tremendous power and/or influence, but are not "omnipotent". >Thus, any single Pagan being does not hold the supreme power to create or >destroy the universe. You seem to be directly contradicting what I have found in my own study of historical paganism. Every pagan mythology I've studied has creation myths, and often more than one. Numerous entities are portrayed as the creator of the universe, and while pagan religions are often less eschatological than monotheist ones, there are various legends of pagan deities like Shiva and Fenrir with the power to destroy the universe as well. Most deities which developed a thriving cultus were at some time or another acclaimed by their worshippers as the creator and ultimate basis of the universe: the ecstatic inflation of attributes to the ultimate level is no less common in paganism than in monotheism, and in fact, monotheism could be seen as little more than the outcome of this inflationary process. You seem to be taking some particular viewpoint you have about the nature of pantheons and displacing it onto historical pagans, who held very different views. -- Tim Maroney. Please CC all public responses to tim@toad.com. Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!amd!amdahl.com!toad.com!tim From: tim@toad.com (Tim Maroney) Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.satanism Subject: Re: CHLow: Dark/Light Neopaganism (Was Re: Dark roygbiv Light) Message-ID: <81225@toad.com> Date: 2 Jan 96 05:40:44 GMT References: <4c8ftp$97o@falcon.sat.net> <4c8trv$f08@uucp.intac.com> Reply-To: tim@toad.com.UUCP (Tim Maroney) Organization: As Little As Possible Lines: 32 Xref: shell.portal.com alt.magick.tyagi:5996 alt.pagan:139259 alt.satanism:31390 Clifford Low writes: >In article <4c8ftp$97o@falcon.sat.net> Mandrake .....the Bard, >mandrake@sat.net writes: >> Oh, you can stop acting as if I'm some uneducated little twit who just >>became Pagan two weeks ago on a whim. I'm quite familiar with mythology, >>history, philosophy, and the roots of Neopaganism. The fact is, that Neopagans >>are "reconstructing" Pagan religions based on everything they have availible, >>and trying to be as true to history and to themselves as possible. >What a crock of shit. Let's get some mighty war god sacrifices going. >"Oh, so this one involves decapitating captured prisoners of war and >sprinkling the pyre with oil mixed with goats blood. Let's do a rain >check on this one, boys." Ever heard of the Monkey's Paw? You have no >idea what you are asking for when you talk about bringing back pagan >modes of worship and ethics. If you do, then be honest- our country would >throw us in the slammer if we did authentic worship. The old style >religions were bloody and quite animal-sacrifice focused. Correct. The modern "Pagan" religion of the West is entirely different from historical paganism. There is a whole web of theurgical assumptions derived ultimately fron Neo-Platonism and other classical magic which is completely alien to the religious matrix of pre-Christian mainstream society. Your average Norse warrior or Celtic hunter did not spend time poncing about in circles trying to bring down the moon. The modern pagan religion in the West starts from the theurgical assumptions it inherited from Western ceremonial magic and grafts various symbols from non-theurgical religions onto it rather loosely. Its practice is nothing like the practices of its supposed forebears, wth the sole exception of Graeco-Roman mysteries, which it is usually at pains to insult and deny. -- Tim Maroney. Please CC all public responses to tim@toad.com.