Path: shell.portal.com!svc.portal.com!sdd.hp.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!rocky.ucdavis.edu!ez055275 From: Thomas Hrouda Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.all-worlds Subject: Re: Satanist/NeoPagan War Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:45:23 -0700 Organization: University of California, Davis Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <4pkpee$dqu@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu><4pks9k$o@news.internetmci.com> <4pn3ok$rv4@news.internetmci.com><4ppakl$frb@falcon.sat.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: rocky.ucdavis.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: ez055275@rocky.ucdavis.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: shell.portal.com alt.pagan:163294 alt.satanism:45602 alt.religion.all-worlds:8000 FYI- A not so quick response to Cher/Black Widow My View: I think the main 'problem' here is that contrary to what most pagans say publically they really want to convert people to their way of thinking. I for one would always admit to it but many others will not. That brings us to why these 'who is a pagan who isn't' wars go on. If you haven't noticed a large (relatively) number of people come to alt. pagan seeking information. They are not part of any group often they may seek to become part of one. As a practical matter every group seeks to recruit these people to their cause. Now, when you think of it that way, the attempt at being exclusionary by certain groups seems to be an attempt to drive out competition. Lets face it a when a fresh faced teenager just finishes watching the Craft and decides to pull up alt.pagan on the web the last they will pretty much accept just about anything thats said about the self-appointed experts on paganism. If you can drive one group off it makes recruitment a whole lot easier. I see it as akin to what many christian groups do. Drive out all religious competition in an area an then become the only way of filling a spiritual void. Lets be very honest, paganism has no real definition. (Unlike Wicca or Asatru or Satanism or ....) So in many ways a pagan logging on really is exposed to a huge number of opinions. I for one could care less if the "general pagan population" agrees or disagrees (ok I might care a little 8 ^) ) with what I have to say but if I can reach a new person who shares my beliefs than every post is a great victory. My concern is that paganism has become a kinda "chritianity in drag" movement which is not what I want. If I (or any one else who agrees with me) can influence a new pagan in well- the right direction- I will do so. Its not so much that I want to be part of the neo-pagans (and whose to say that their not a bunch of wannabes trying to usurp the title from me and people like me) its that most people become neo-pagans first and then join a particular tradition. I will not give up the first forum on the net these people encounter because someone doesn't like the "reputation" or whatever of some other movement. Finally. I suspose we could have alt.pagan. mark 1 & alt.pagan. mark 2 etc etc but then who would get to post to which. You can bet there would be a lot of crossposting For the record I'm not a satanist, I would definitely consider myself a neo-pagan. And if anyone is interested I would gladly post a manifesto of my beliefs. 8 ^ ) . [ but only by e-mail I wouldn't want anyone to get angry about what I'm doing to the reputation of neo-pagan movement - tee hee] On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Cher wrote: edited to save space..... > > I've been reading the posts concerning satanism being included as pagan or > neo-pagan and am wondering if its the satanists which are wanting to be > included or grouped with such? Or, is it others who are not satanists > that want to include them? If its the satanists, then why? I don't > think I understand the "need" to be categorized with other belief systems. > Now, I may be wrong but I keep getting the sense of (weakness?) in this > "need" to be included and not stand alone. As indicated I am not sure if > weakness is really the right word to use, but these posts are giving off > an impression to some that small children are crying, "Us too! We want to > be a part of the neo-pagans. Please, please, please!" > > Maybe I'm missing something, but what is the need to be included or > considered neo-pagan? Is it so you can post in the pagan newsgroup? Do > you want to be invited to their rituals? > someone could explain why this 'Me Too Need' exists? > Black Widow * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Sacrifice does not mean the rejection of the worthless, but of the precious. Sacrifice is not the rejection of evil for the sake of good, but of the sacrifice of good for the sake of evil. Sacrifice is the surrender of what you value for that what you don't. If you give up something good for something better, it is not sacrifice. Tom Hrouda tghrouda@ucdavis.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *