Path: shell.portal.com!shell.portal.com!not-for-mail From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.satanism,alt.religion.all-worlds,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.religion,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Satanist/NeoPagan War Date: 19 Jun 1996 14:14:02 -0700 Organization: Portal Communications (shell) Lines: 168 Sender: tyagi@shell.portal.com Message-ID: <4q9qiq$4r9@jobe.shell.portal.com> References: <4pkpee$dqu@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu><4pks9k$o@news.internetmci.com> <4pn3ok$rv4@news.internetmci.com><4ppakl$frb@falcon.sat.net> Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nocTifer) NNTP-Posting-Host: jobe.shell.portal.com Xref: shell.portal.com alt.pagan:163168 alt.satanism:45538 alt.religion.all-worlds:7983 alt.magick.tyagi:8715 alt.religion:2397 talk.religion.misc:225292 talk.religion.newage:53000 kaliyuga 49960619 AA1 Cher : |I've been reading the posts concerning satanism being included as pagan or |neo-pagan the bulk have not concerned this issue except as regards classification. |...am wondering if its the satanists which are wanting to be included |or grouped with such? I think some Satanists do see it this way, whether we want to 'be included' or not. |Or, is it others who are not satanists that want to include them? rarely. usually people who want to portray Satanists in a particular light associate it with the Urban Legend of Satanism (Christianity's Nightmare) or their own form (orgReligious are the most prevalent). |If its the satanists, then why? your question is ambiguous. why do some Satanists see ourselves as part of Neopaganism? perhaps because this reflects our experience of Neopaganism and Satanism. very rational. |I don't think I understand the "need" to be categorized with other |belief systems. that you consider Neopaganism to be a system of belief or even a rough complex of doctrinal structures is quite amusing, but I don't find it to be borne out by my research (the exception to this may be the Church of All World's 'Neo-Pagan', which they have defined precisely). |...sense ...(weakness?) in this [a] "need" to be included and not |stand alone. ...small children are crying, "Us too! We want to |be a part of the neo-pagans. Please, please, please!" I suspect that most Satanists are solitaries, much as this is true among Witches (and perhaps not without similar reasons). and yet your characterization here is not what I see of Satanists and our approach to Neopagans as a group. that is, I don't see Satanists *asking* to be part of Neopaganism so much as stating our observation of the similarities between the two and that the two appear to be similar if not connected or even identical in some measures. not small children (note the belittlement), but in some cases very grown up folx (ooo) saying: "we observe that there are remarkable similarities between what is called 'Neopaganism' and 'Satanism'. perhaps we should not presume that these are entirely separate and try to understand the relationship between them." |...what is the need to be included or considered neo-pagan? Is it |so you can post in the pagan newsgroup? I have often done so even before considering myself a Satanist. there are no restrictions on who can post to Neopagan Usenet forums. the objective in creating soc.religion.paganism is to limit off-topic posting and spammage. yet even Christians could post to a Neopagan newsgroup and talk about Neopaganism (whether about the comparison between Christianity and Neopaganism or not) without requiring that Neopagans accept them as Neopagan. |Do you want to be invited to their rituals? I have attended many and am invited often, having a standing invitation as I am aware in my local Neopagan community. I have become more solitary. the local Neopagans appear to be very inclusive (though I have sometimes heard rumors to the contrary). |Are you trying to better your own reputation (I'd first take a better |look at the pagans reputation). reputation plays a large part in much Satanism, but for myself I do not particularly need this, no, since I have a solid reputation as a sincere, strong, and loving individual among those who know me well. |Do you feel you need allies, or support (isn't this contradictory)? surrounded by a host of the Enemy, the two soldiers eye each other warily. Dove (short for 'Dovetail', his last name) and Bat (a nick- name given to him by his old foes) consider their next move. Dove pulls a pin from the grenade in his hand and lobs it over toward the area near Bat. it explodes, harming nobody, yet the Enemy sees the explosion and targets it for their next shelling. for a while, Dove is safe as Bat fends off the incoming explosions. Bat: "Hey! Why did you do that? We're on the same side?!" Dove: "We are?! I don't think so. I've heard about you and your evil ways. You are as much *my* Enemy as those who have us surrounded!" Bat: "Idiot! Look at your uniform! Look at mine! We are on the same side!" Dove: "Your disguise is of no use, Bat. I know you're a traitor and I'm going to give up your position to the Enemy so that I can hide here in peace for a while, knowing that the Enemy without and the Enemy within are safely away." Bat: "But you're crazy! How will we ever survive as a disparate pack of animals sniping at another when the Enemy is all around us?! Wouldn't it be better to see how we are friends? Wouldn't it be better to find out why we seem to wear the same uniform?" Dove: "I don't know why you want to be allied with me. Your ways are well-known. You are a traitor and my Team doesn't allow traitors to remain a part of Us. Start your *own* army and get your own uniform, dammit!" |Maybe someone could explain why this 'Me Too Need' exists? perhaps it is not so much 'Me Too' as 'We two'. |I should also point out that I do understand the other threads which |aren't asking to be included or considered neo-pagan; who are we asking? for what reason? who can grant that inclusion? my own arguments are based upon my research concerning 'both' religious groupings. so far I haven't seen a great difference of the TYPE of values (only their application and degree), which appears to be the commonality among Neopagans. |...your asking no more or less than any other religion or belief |system out there, and I also think your own newsgroup is very |sufficient in doing this. when Neopagans tell us what OUR Satanism is, should we just sit and accept it, saying nothing except within the Satanism forums, and 'turn the other cheek'? and what about those of us who already PRESUME the identity of our Satanism as Neopagan? |So again, why the 'need' to be accepted by the pagans and neo-pagans; why does anyone want to be accepted for who and what they are? |and why the 'need' to post in such newsgroups? in response to blatant disrespect, lying and the description of the paths of others where knowledge and experience of it do not reside. I hope this is understood. nocTifer tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com -- Ensure my response - CC public replies to email http://www.hollyfeld.org/~tyagi/nagasiva.html (emailed replies may be posted) check: http://www.paranoia.com/coe/