Path: typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.pagan,alt.wicca,alt.witchcraft,alt.religion.wicca Subject: God-Initiations and Authority References: <7d8764ba.0312150150.155034d2@posting.google.com> <20031215134315.26112.00000866@mb-m15.aol.com> <7d8764ba.0312190333.27508ab5@posting.google.com> <7d8764ba.0312200355.685ca54b@posting.google.com> <7d8764ba.0312220403.7e628317@posting.google.com> <1072109283.17589.0@dyke.uk.clara.net> <7d8764ba.0312240439.16c724d2@posting.google.com> From: nocTifer Reply-To: spam@luckymojo.com User-Agent: nn/6.6.0 Lines: 28 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 07:29:18 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.201.242.18 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1072510158 208.201.242.18 (Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:29:18 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 23:29:18 PST Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:42957 alt.pagan:383140 alt.witchcraft:68024 alt.religion.wicca:794943 50031226 vii om raven@solaria.sol.net (Raven): # ...in the *same* sense in which they say "self-initiation" doesn't # exist, ***neither does initiation by a lineaged High Priest/ess***. # Both rites are merely rituals by human beings; *initiation* is done # by the Gods. the right gods? at any particular time? making one a clergy member? giving one any sort of authority? so many variables, so little time. # Now if people are initiated by the Gods no matter who performed the # ritual (i.e whether solitary or in coven), that's stating a # fundamental equality of the status of the initiations; what Gods # do "trumps" what mortals do. and then the only real issue at that point is determining when an initiation has been conducted by the gods and which were 'merely ceremonial with no conferring or authoritative qualities'. conservative Neopagans conclude that there is no overarching clergy-hierarchicalization *possible*, given these conditions, and we therefore regard all clergy or poseur-clergy as effectively of the same overall authority. blessed beast! nocTifer