To: alt.paranormal.spells.hexes.magic,alt.magick,alt.pagan,alt.magick.tyagi
From: catherine yronwode <cat@luckymojo.com>
Subject: Re: A word for poor departed Herman Slater
Orig-Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:23:40 GMT

Revised [3/31/03 cy] 

       keyword search terms:
 
       Herman Slater A Book of Pagan Rituals
       Warlock Shop Magickal Childe New York
       plagiarism plagiarized stole ripped off
       Ed Fitch Ed Sitch Joseph Wilson
       John Hansen Tony Kelly Herman Enderle 
       John Score Tom Delong De Long 
       Gwydian Gwyddian Gwydion Gwyddion 
       Penderwen Penderwin Pendderwin 
       Pendderwen Penderwyn Pendderwyn
       Waxing Moon Crystal Well Pagan Way 
       Chicago England Wales California

"Joseph B. Wilson" wrote:
> 
> Just one correction, cat.

Thanks for the correction and elaboration, Joseph; comments below. 
 
> catherine yronwode <cat@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> 
> >Saint David and the Angels wrote:
> >>
> >> Joseph B. Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >> > Saint David and the Angels wrote:
> >
> >> > > John Hansen wrote:
> >
> >> > > > Dr. Jake wrote:
> >
> >> > > > > I think the conclusion to draw here is not that Slater
> >> > > > > lacked the knowledge, but that he didn't want to
> >> > > > > put death spells in the hands of reckless persons --
> >> > > > > which shows a kind of karmic good manners which
> >> > > > > deserves recognition even at this late date.
> >
> >> > > > As someone who knew him personally, from the Warlock Shop in
> >> > > > Brooklyn to the Magical Childe in New York, I will assure
> >> > > > anyone who asks that Herman did not have the knowledge.
> >
> >> > > If you were to take these comments further, and dirty
> >> > > Mr. Slater's reputation, what you have written [...]
> >> > > MIGHT amount to anonymous libel, and slander. [...]
> >> > > If you are going to judge Herman Slater, do it when
> >> > > he is alive. Don't dirty his reputation, after the man
> >> > > is gone from this earth.
> >
> >> > That's John Hansen, one of the people that Slater stole from.
> >> > I'm Joe Wilson, one of the other people that Slater stole from.
> >> > Who the hell are you?
> >
> >> It's very simple.
> >>
> >> I am somone who has evoked spirits over one thousand times.
> >>
> >> I am someone who does not want to see the dead roasted
> >> over an open fire.
> >>
> >> If you have a valid criticism, could you not have taken
> >> this up with Herman Slater, in court, when he was alive?
> >>
> >> It must be easier to do after the fact.
> >>
> >> Enough said.
> >
> >David, you have a good heart, but there are things known to the
> >general pagan community above a certain age that you do not seem
> >to know. We do not know these things because we are "wiser," just
> >because we lived through those times and remember those events.
> >
> >In this case, the events are about as follows: Herman Slater
> >plagiarized, stole and ripped off the writings of Ed Fitch, John
> >Hansen, Joseph B. Wilson, Tony Kelly, and Herman Enderle, and
> >published them in a book of pagan rituals titled "A Book of Pagan
> >Rituals."  These pagan rituals had been written during the early 1970s
> >for the Pagan Way in Chicago, and Herman put his name on them and
> >sought the glory for creating them.
> 
> The Pagan Way material was written to fill the void because there were
> hundreds of people who wanted a means of Pagan religious expression,
> but the ONLY thing generally available for them was the exclusively
> initiatory and secret Gardnerian and Alexandrian traditions, which
> were not wide spread, and Tim Zell's science fiction based CAW..
> 
> In early 1970 I initiated a correspondence committee consisting of
> myself (Oxfordshire England at the time), Tony Kelly (Wales), John
> Hansen (Pennsylvania),  Tom Delong aka Gwydion Penderwin (Oakland,
> California) Ed Fitch (various places in the US) and John Score
> (London).  Our purpose was  to create something for every seeker no
> matter who they were or what their background was, to be available
> either without cost, or for the cost of printing and postage alone.
> John Score dropped out after the first couple of letters because we
> did not want to include Qabalah, and did not want to be as restrictive
> as he wanted.  He subsequently created Pagan Front in England which
> later became something else.
> 
> Ed coordinated the project and wrote most of the material, John, Tony,
> myself, and Tom contributed to it.  We were idealistic in those days,
> and I insisted the material contain no by-lines and be in the public
> domain so it would always be free. That's a mistake I have not made
> since.
> 
> All of us were involved with distribution in the United States,
> England and Wales.  Herman Enderle was one of the first, if not the
> very first,  to establish a Pagan Way grove (heh, I coined the word
> grove for use with it since coven wasn't appropriate) as well as
> distribute the material, but he was not involved in its creation.
> There were many many others who did the same.
> 
> Initial distribution of the Pagan Way material was made available
> through The Crystal Well, a publication which I founded as The Waxing
> Moon and turned over to Ed when I left the United States for England.
> And through The Waxing Moon in England, until that became the sole
> voice of "Pagan Movement in Britain and Ireland" which is what Pagan
> Way became there.
> 
> I hope this helps.

It certainly does help. You supplied details i either had forgotten or
did 
not fully know at the time. 

For instance, i did not know that the late Gwydion Penderwen (Tom
DeLong) was involved in the writing of the Pagan Way rituals -- even
though i was familiar with him through the California scene, both as a
musician and because of his relationship to Victor and Cora Anderson
of the Fairy / Feri tradition, which is locally quite active. Thanks
for supplying that information. 

Also, thanks for clarifying Herman Enderle's role, which i 
had overestimated, due to his distribution of the texts. 

> >You [David] asked a very valid question when you wrote:
> >
> >> If you have a valid criticism, could you not have taken
> >> this up with Herman Slater, in court, when he was alive?
> >
> >I am going to take the liberty of speaking for others, and i ask their
> >indulgence, because my intentions are good, namely to quickly wash
> >away your contempt and hostility against them with a refreshing shower
> >of historical information. :-)
> >
> >Most of the people Herman ripped off in his "Book of Pagan Rituals"
> >caper -- probably all of them -- were and are consciously trying to
> >live under social models that did and do not include suing people.
> >They elected to use an older, tribal form of social justice -- shaming
> >and shunning.
> >
> >Back when this all happened, in the 1970s, there was no need for the
> >involvement of a court of law -- word spread fast and the entire world
> >pagan community of the time soon knew what had happened. In the
> >"court" of pagan opinion, Herman Slater was charged and tried for
> >stealing the literary works of others. Evidence of his wrong-doing was
> >presented, he received a guilty verdict, and he was sentenced to
> >banishment from the ranks of the respected. We all knew what Herman
> >Slater had done. His name was mud in the pagan community. His
> >reputation was, essentially, ruined. The knowledge that this so-called
> >"Witch" and "Mage" had ripped off his own community of colleagues
> >stayed with him all his life.
> >
> >I have seen it written on the web -- for instance at
> >   http://www.cuups.org/content/resources/books/teensnyngadults.html
> >-- that as Herman was dying (he had AIDS and knew his end was near),
> >he fully admitted that he had plagiarized the Pagan Way folks. He did
> >not PAY them for what he had done, however, and so he went to his
> >death having reaped the monetary gain of being a thief.

NOTE: 
   On March 29, 2003, John M. Hansen <Hehansen@rcn.com> 
   added this information:

#     For those who are interested in such things, Herman Slater
# sold the rights to the "Book of Pagan Rituals" to Donald Weiser
# of Samuel Weiser's for $500.00  At the time Donald Weiser
# thought that Slater had written the rituals.
#     Donald Weiser told me this himself.
#    [At the time, in the early 1970s] there were several 'mailing 
# centers' that sent out copies of the Pagan Rituals to anyone 
# who sent in a dollar for postage. One of these was in Philadelphia, 
# another in North Dakota. Requests for rituals came in from all 
# over the world.

> >Herman died ten years or more ago. His old Magickal Childe occult shop
> >is long gone. His pre-death confession changed his status from a
> >community-condemned thief to a self-confessed thief, but he never made
> >reparations, and thus his reputation, his name -- his spirit after
> >death, if you will -- is still "serving time" for what he did.
> >
> >You have every right to ask if folks have a "valid criticism" of
> >Herman Slater and to call to account people who are saying
> >condemnatrory things about him.
> >
> >Of course, from my perspective, things look a bit different. I wonder
> >why folks don't condemn Herman Slater MORE.
> >
> >For instance, to me, the way in which John Hansen weighed in on the
> >matter of Herman Slater's knowledge of magic was a model of civility.
> >I was in awe of how decent John was in merely replying to the single
> >matter of whether Herman had a certain point of knowledge or not. John
> >did not bring ANY of this other stuff up. I considered that an
> >incredible act of generosity, actually.
> >
> >You took Herman's side because he is dead and cannot speak for
> >himself. And that shows *your* generosity of spirit. You did not want
> >to see the dead roasted, since they have no self-defense.
> >
> >Fair enough. Your questions deserved answers. I have tried to supply
> >them. I hope you understand now where why attacks on Herman Slater's
> >reputation continue after his death, and will continue.
> >
> >One major weakness with the tribal model of punishment for offenses
> >against the community is that as time goes by and new folks join the
> >community, they may not be taught the full history of tribal events.
> >
> >Thus, in this case, you see what looks to you like a bunch of people
> >mobbing the reputation of a dead man who was never found guilty in
> >court.
> >
> >Now i enter into the conversation, and i am telling you that in my
> >opinion, these two men, John Hansen and Joseph B. Wilson, have all the
> >right in the world to speak of Herman in far worse terms than they
> >have.
> >
> >Of course, you don't know me either... so at this point you have a
> >choice -- you can believe what we are saying or do some more research.
> >I know that any further research you do will support what has been
> >said here.
> >
> >In the end, i am confident that even if you do not agree with the
> >tactics put into play by the pagan community of the 1970s, you will at
> >least understand why Herman Slater's name and spirit are spoken of
> >disrespectfully after death -- because that is the way it works when
> >people choose a tribal or pagan social model of punishment for crimes,
> >shaming and shunning rather than suing.
> >
> >You can agree or not, David, but that's what's happening here.
> >
> >And John and Joseph, i hope you forgive me for speaking out and that
> >you will correct any factual errors i may have made. I want this in
> >the google archives so that after we all pass away and become as the
> >leaves of grass, keyword search terms like

[revised]

       Herman Slater A Book of Pagan Rituals
       Warlock Shop Magickal Childe New York
       plagiarism plagiarized stole ripped off
       Ed Fitch Ed Sitch Joseph Wilson
       John Hansen Tony Kelly Herman Enderle 
       John Score Tom Delong De Long 
       Gwydian Gwyddian Gwydion Gwyddion 
       Penderwen Penderwin Pendderwin 
       Pendderwen Penderwyn Pendderwyn
       Waxing Moon Crystal Well Pagan Way 
       Chicago England Wales California

> >will turn up the information for the next generation.
> >
> >cat yronwode

I hope that, in addition to the google auto-archive keeping a copy of
this post, siva archives it in the "pagan" section of his usenet
archive at luckymojo.com.
 
cat yronwode