From tyagi@bjt.net Sat Nov 16 16:58:33 1996 Return-Path: tyagi@bjt.net Received: from kudonet.com (kudonet.com [165.227.52.1]) by bitsy.hollyfeld.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20631 for ; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:58:27 -0500 Received: by kudonet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA17140; Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:51:00 -0800 Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:51:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199611162051.MAA17140@kudonet.com> To: tyagi@hollyfeld.org Subject: 9611.stnnpgn.b From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Reply-To: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) Status: RO >Path: kudonet.com!kudo!tyagi >From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) >Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.religion.wicca,soc.religion.pagan,talk.religion.misc >Subject: Balanone: Satanism and Neopaganism (was Satan who??? ...) >Followup-To: alt.pagan,alt.religion.wicca,freenet.pub-sq.speakeasy.pagan,alt.magick.tyagi,alt.satanism,alt.religion.wicca,soc.religion.pagan,talk.religion.misc >Date: 14 Nov 1996 03:42:26 -0800 >Organization: KudoNet On-Line Services >Lines: 108 >Sender: tyagi@bjt.net >Message-ID: >References: <53k0s5$1fp@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <53ofev$5r9@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> <54glhs$qk8@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> <55j65n$1lh@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu> <615_9611101550@gigo.com> >Reply-To: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com (Balanone) >NNTP-Posting-Host: kudo.kudonet.com >Xref: kudonet.com alt.magick.tyagi:8114 alt.satanism:46030 alt.religion.wicca:32288 talk.religion.misc:215542 [from alt.pagan: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com (Balanone)] general On Nov 03, 1996, ik135@cleveland.Freenet.Edu responded to an earlier post re: Re: Satan who??? Re: Salem in 1692 - part 2 > Well, Balanone, I'd actually be quite interested to hear > by what definition you classify Satanism as a form of modern > Paganism, and in what way every statement made about Satanism is > untrue, as you claim. No, not every statement made about Satanism is untrue. But every statement made about Satanism in the post I responded to was untrue. If someone accurately defines Satanism as a) a worship of man's human nature and the indulgence in same, b) a delight in the freedom against the various restrictions imposed by Christianity and related religions, c) a recognition that there are many worthwhile qualities assigned to Satan by Christian religions (eg: pride, power, independence of thought and will), d) a recognition that Christianity took many ancient religions which worshipped dark gods and melded those gods together into what Christianity calls Satan and melded the religions together into what Christianity calls Satanism, then by this analysis it's clear that Satanism as practiced by the majority of modern Satanists is a Pagan religion/philosophy. > It is my understanding that Satanism is 1. a Christian > heresy, and 2. exists within the same mythos as the Christian > religion, 3. does NOT exist within the mythos of ancient Witchcraft, > modern Wicca, or Neo-Paganism, and 4. involves the worship of, or > some other relationship with, the character refered to as Satan by > the Christians. 1) Satanism is not a Christian heresy. Many/most forms of Satanism predate Christianity (Christianity's Satan and what they called Satanism were based on preceding forms). Many other forms of Satanism relish the good qualities Christianity has proclaimed are evil Satanic qualities (pride, power, will), but otherwise have no use for Christianity or its proclamations. 2) Satanism does not exist within the same mythos as the Christian religion, since almost no Satanist gives any credence to any of the Christian gods, prophets, or spirits (Yahweh, Mary, Jesus, Paul, angels, demons, whatever). 3a) Satanism has very many close ties to ancient Witchcraft, largely because magic is magic, and also because Christianity took ancient Witchcraft's practices and religions and called them Satanism. 3b) Satanism has many ties to modern Wicca, since most of modern Wicca is derived through Gardner from the same sources which modern Satanism uses for inspiration and magical methodology. 3c) Satanism, or at least various subgroups within Satanism, is/are form(s) of Neo-Paganism by Oberon Zell's own definition: "The term Neo-Paganism is applied to the modern re-emergence of ancient Pagan religious values, including the sacredness of all Life and the worship of Nature." Several forms of modern Satanism follow and revitalize ancient Pagan religious values from a variety of ancient societies and religions (Setianism and its dedication to the inspiration of the ancient Egyptian Set is just one example). 4) Most Satanists do not worship (or have some other relationship with) the "character referred to as Satan by the Christians" but instead they work with the ideals of rebellion, intelligence, pride, independence, indulgence, will, etc., which have been demonized and applied to Satan by Christianity. > I do not mean to imply that a Satanist considers his/her > activities to be evil, or that there is only one form of Satanism, > and I may be wrong in my statement that a Satanist is on the "side" > of Satan in a battle for the throne of heaven. This last point, I > readilly admit, is the pinion of certain non-Satanists ABOUT > Satanists, and I must follow my own advice in not identifying a group > of people by the definitions supplied by those who have declared > themselves against that group. But that is what you did above. You didn't use the definitions supplied by Satanists (readily available in the alt.satanism FAQs and through other sources), but instead used supposed definitions supplied by others, duplicating and spreading their ignorance. This is why you made the mistakes you did. > Nonetheless, among the hundreds of Pagans I have met both in > modern and non-modern Pagan traditions, from faiths across te world > and the ages, the overwhelming opinion I have heard expressed is > that Satanism is NOT, in fact, a form of Paganism, and derives from > the Judaeo-Christian-Muslim body of belief. Yes, that is the overwhelming opinion. Unfortunately for you, truth is not a democracy, and public opinion has often been wrong. This is just one more example of that. Balanone PP FidoNet: Balanone at 1:203/2019 PODS: Balanone at 93:9303/2019 Internet: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com ... Bureaucat: A kitty who sleeps on your undies. ___ TagDude 0.87 [Unregistered] with 12318 taglines. -- : Fidonet: Balanone 1:203/2019 .. speaking for only myself. : Internet: Balanone@tefnut.gigo.com